Notre Dame drops to...

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Spence
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Re: Notre Dame drops to...

Postby Spence » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:06 pm

Cane from the Bend wrote:
billybud wrote:
Spence wrote:
billybud wrote:And don't pretend that Bama wasn't a top four team....that was evident by the final snap of the season.

Bama only lost to Auburn....as did Georgia....That is the problem with having divisions. Two teams have an equal 11-1 with the loss to the same team...only it didn't count for the team from a different division. But there was no difference, essentially, between Georgia and Bama..except that Alabama did beat Georgi in their match up.

Auburn's problem was that they lost to Clemson and LSU...prior to losing to Georgia in the rAuburn- Georgia retry and then to UCF.


So head to head shouldn't be a tie breaker in the event that there is a tie?


Well Spence...the problem with Georgia-Alabama that year...is that they did not play head to head in conference (& rarely do)....at the time of the SEC championship game, both teams had lost to Auburn and that was the only loss for both teams...but, being in a different division was all the difference because that put Bama behind Auburn in the West but didn't hurt Georgia in the East.. In the last ten seasons, Bama and Georgia have only been on the SEC regular season conference schedule for one game.

The head to head did eventually come...in the NC game...and Alabama prevailed over Georgia



Yes, which did not need to happen, because the way Divisions work.

Like I said; do away with the SEC Championship if that's how it is going to be justified. If Divisions are the issue, then don't have them ...

Or, if you are going to keep them; then let them serve their purpose.

Anything else is just an excuse.

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The problem isn't divisions, tie breakers, or the blueblood programs that dominate this system. It is having it be controlled by subjectivity instead of the randomness of playing into a tournament by winning your conference or league the same way any every other sport - even pro football determines their champ. Imagine how the owners or fans would react to the NFL to have a committee that puts teams in a playoff determined by any other method but winning. Sure they allow a wild cards based on winning, but even that isn't subjective. No other sport, except for the other big sport the NCAA controls allows this to be done.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Notre Dame drops to...

Postby Cane from the Bend » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:59 pm

__________________________________________

Which is why I continue to harp on the problem with preseason polls ...

Because there is no current data to base your judgement on, other than, "We think so & so is going to be good, because they were last year."

Last year doesn't matter anymore. It's all conjecture. Because, even if those same players carry over into the next season, their stats do not.

There are no Wins, there are no Losses.

There are no Yards gained, there are no Tackles made.

Zero Turnovers, Zero Points Scored.

Only assumptions about how those perceived teams will do against the opponents on their schedules, who also have Zero statistics to evaluate going into the first game of the year.

Those assumptions do not warrant a ranking. Because if we want it to actually be proven on the field, then matters will be evident once the games have actually been played.

Even the BCS waited until after week 8 to release their poll. The problem there, was that the AP & Coaches polls were both released 4 weeks prior to the first game having been kicked off.

And with the AP poll being a component of the BCS until 2006, and the Coaches poll being a component the entire life span of the BCS; the whole of the system was flawed.

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Cane... [__]

"It is only impossible until it has been accomplished." ... then it becomes standardized ...

Success is measured by results; whereas Character is measured through the means by which one achieves those results . . .

It seems the Rapture did come for two worthy souls:
In Memory of Grandpa Howdy
In Memory of Donovan Davisson

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Re: Notre Dame drops to...

Postby Spence » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:19 pm

I have no problem with the polls as long as they have no power. Kind of like us predicting the out come of games. They predict the out come of the season. The problem I have is that they take themselves too seriously. The power of the media is considerable. People are singing Chase Young's praises the last few weeks like he just started playing great football. He has been playing great football since he first came to Ohio State. Just because a media guy or group all of the sudden decided to alert those outside the Buckeye universe that he was a great player he is all of the sudden a Heisman candidate. I admittedly haven't seen every cfb player, but I know the Bosa's were pretty good ballplayers and this guy, even as a freshman looked better than they did. He is the best DT that has ever put on a Buckeye uniform IMO. He won't win the Heisman because some Heisman voters won't even know who he is at the end of the season.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Notre Dame drops to...

Postby Mountainman » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:57 pm

My proposal, a.k.a. My two cents worth, is lookin’ better all the time. No conference championship game for ‘do overs’, no weak schedules rewarded, wins and losses matter, no polls, no media influence...... I could go on.
”We’re already in a time where the on-field aspect of College Football is almost a distraction. It’s an era filled with handwringing about player empowerment, NCAA deregulation, the transfer portal and realignment all while the sport generally moves toward a professional model.” ~ Dennis Dodd

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Re: Notre Dame drops to...

Postby billybud » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:39 pm

Spence...not having divisions is also messy...before the Big Ten went to divisions, after all tie breakers were exhausted...they still had co champions declared in 1990, 1993, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2002, 2004, 2005.

No real declarative champion...
“If short hair and good manners won football games, Army and Navy would play for the national championship every year.”

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Re: Notre Dame drops to...

Postby Cane from the Bend » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:23 am

__________________________________________

It sure would have been nice to see the Big 10 implement the Big XII's current Conference Championship Game in those days.

Of course; there was that mumbo jumbo about needing 12 teams to sanction a CCG ... however, if the Big Ten wanted to just go ahead and do it, what real authority did the NCAA have to stop them?

Like the ACC when Miami, Va Tech & Boston College all joined ... the ACC could have petitioned to have a Championship that first year, where B.C. was still obligated to the Big East under contract for another season.

Maybe they should have did what the Big XII did, and said, to heck with that; "We're gonna have one anyway."

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Cane... [__]

"It is only impossible until it has been accomplished." ... then it becomes standardized ...

Success is measured by results; whereas Character is measured through the means by which one achieves those results . . .

It seems the Rapture did come for two worthy souls:
In Memory of Grandpa Howdy
In Memory of Donovan Davisson

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Re: Notre Dame drops to...

Postby billybud » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:13 am

RALEIGH, N.C. -- The Atlantic Coast Conference has asked the NCAA to change a rule that would allow the league to hold a football championship game.

The ACC expanded to 11 schools two weeks ago by adding Miami and Virginia Tech, but under NCAA regulations only conferences with 12 or more teams can stage such a lucrative title game.

Shane Lyons, an ACC assistant commissioner in charge of compliance, said the ACC filed the necessary paperwork with the NCAA on Tuesday, asking that leagues with 10 teams be allowed to play conference title games -- some of which make as much as $12 million.

The NCAA will send the ACC proposal, along with about 100 others, to the college membership in August, Lyons said.
“If short hair and good manners won football games, Army and Navy would play for the national championship every year.”

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Re: Notre Dame drops to...

Postby Spence » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:18 am

billybud wrote:Spence...not having divisions is also messy...before the Big Ten went to divisions, after all tie breakers were exhausted...they still had co champions declared in 1990, 1993, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2002, 2004, 2005.

No real declarative champion...


Still, it is the conferences responsibility to put their best foot forward, not for the committee to decide.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Notre Dame drops to...

Postby billybud » Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:09 pm

Great...and what is the conferences best foot forward when they have co-champs?

That is why they have divisions, unequal or not.
“If short hair and good manners won football games, Army and Navy would play for the national championship every year.”

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Re: Notre Dame drops to...

Postby Cane from the Bend » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:54 pm

billybud wrote:RALEIGH, N.C. -- The Atlantic Coast Conference has asked the NCAA to change a rule that would allow the league to hold a football championship game.

The ACC expanded to 11 schools two weeks ago by adding Miami and Virginia Tech, but under NCAA regulations only conferences with 12 or more teams can stage such a lucrative title game.

Shane Lyons, an ACC assistant commissioner in charge of compliance, said the ACC filed the necessary paperwork with the NCAA on Tuesday, asking that leagues with 10 teams be allowed to play conference title games -- some of which make as much as $12 million.

The NCAA will send the ACC proposal, along with about 100 others, to the college membership in August, Lyons said.



Yep, and I'm saying the ACC should have just went ahead and did it.

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Cane... [__]

"It is only impossible until it has been accomplished." ... then it becomes standardized ...

Success is measured by results; whereas Character is measured through the means by which one achieves those results . . .

It seems the Rapture did come for two worthy souls:
In Memory of Grandpa Howdy
In Memory of Donovan Davisson

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Spence
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Re: Notre Dame drops to...

Postby Spence » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:49 pm

billybud wrote:Great...and what is the conferences best foot forward when they have co-champs?

That is why they have divisions, unequal or not.



That has been my point from the start. The conferences determine a champion. I believe now they all determine one on the field of play. A team that doesn't win their conference shouldn't get appointed by a committee to go represent that conference as a second team in place of another conference winner. Winning your conference should be the only criteria to move on - and not meeting the criteria for a conference championship game isn't an excuse anymore. Everyone has a championship game.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Re: Notre Dame drops to...

Postby billybud » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:21 pm

So...you give up on the idea of the best teams playing for the title?

Or do you actually believe that the best teams are encapsulated in the conference champions?

In most years, the #2 team in the SEC would be favored over the Big 12 or Pac 12 champ.

I guess that is OK...if you say..."OK...so, the best teams may not be what is represented".
“If short hair and good manners won football games, Army and Navy would play for the national championship every year.”

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Re: Notre Dame drops to...

Postby billybud » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:30 pm

How can you reconcile equality between divisions when Georgia plays Bama once every ten seasons...or goes four seasons without LSU on the schedule...or Florida plays Auburn once in ten seasons?
“If short hair and good manners won football games, Army and Navy would play for the national championship every year.”

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Re: Notre Dame drops to...

Postby Spence » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:04 pm

billybud wrote:So...you give up on the idea of the best teams playing for the title?

Or do you actually believe that the best teams are encapsulated in the conference champions?

In most years, the #2 team in the SEC would be favored over the Big 12 or Pac 12 champ.

I guess that is OK...if you say..."OK...so, the best teams may not be what is represented".


There is no way to actually determine objectively who the best teams are, so yes, I think the conference champs are the only objective way to do it. Does the best team win the overall number 1 team win the basketball tournament. Not always. Often it is a top team that gets hot at the right time. I think you have just as much chance of the best team winning a tournament of champions as you do having a committee pick the teams. I don't think there is a possible way to determine who the actual best team. Just the team that beats everyone and comes out on top. If someone could come up with a way to objectively determine the best teams I would be all for it, but there as of today, I don't think it is possible. In a tournament of champions you should at least have one of the top 2 or 3 teams win and be fairly sure about it and I don't think any top team would bemoan the chance to prove it on the field.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain


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