Muhahahaha!

[Eric]

And atheists that impose their beliefs on religious people drive me nuts. Their problem is that they fail to see that religion does help people with their individual lives and helps them be better people. If we lived in a "no-judgement-zone", do you know what kind of society that would be? As much as they claim religion holds society back, generations of being told that nothing happens with consequences would have pretty dangerous side affects. I agree with Donovan that there are many moral atheists out there, but that moral code could easily break down over time without any backing.

[Spence]

I understand what you're saying Spence, but you're starting off from a premise that assumes there is a creator when that may or may not be true. I realize that's what faith is all about, but if I say the universe revolves around a little invisible teapot in the center of the vast cosmos, you can't prove me wrong. Therefore, if there is a book written about the teapot meant to be an explanation of how things began, I can manipulate science to fit the book's interpretation.

I don't really pretend to know what to believe. I'm kind of playing Devil's Advocate, pardon the pun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

I'm not saying that you accept all science at face value. I do know the science that says we evolve or adapt to our surroundings is very strong. Science can be manipulated. Not the facts but the theories. It is the fact that the earth is warming. As to what our envolment in the warming or what we can do to manage that - those are theories. I believe that we aren't as important to this planets survival as we think. I believe that we play a part, of course, but I believe the earth has the ability to fix itself. Whether or not that fix includes our survival in it isn't clear, but I believe the earth, the universe, and whatever else is out there will adapt and go forward. I remember in the 70's scientists saying we were on the verge of another ice age. Now we are on the verge of catastopic warming. The reasons given are mostly the same as then. Scientists tell us that the world will be a very different place in a thousand years. I believe that, it is very different now then a thousand years ago. Whether or not we are here will depend on our ability to adapt to what happens not our ability to change the path that this world has chosen. We give our selves way to much credit believing we can change the climate to something we believe is normal.

[donovan]

Frankly..I am ready for some of that global warming....

[billybud]

For me, I get my proof that God exists everyday when I take time to pray and receive that affirming strength and calmness that comes only from the Holy Spirit. That's all the proof I need.

Whatever works for you. Some folks chant "ommmmm" and meditate and recieve calmness, some focus on controlling moving their brain waves from Beta to Alpha waves (which can be learned) leading to a peacefulness, some can take a sedative although a placebo works almost as well. And some folks receive a reward from prayer.

I find it faintly amusing that "faith" is really a function of geography and happenstance, yet we place so much value on it. If Dossenator had been born in Islamabad, Jaffa, Mombai, or a few thousand other places...he would have been indoctrinated in another culture and faith. A specific "faith" is actually dependent on whom you chose as parents. An accident of proximity, if you will. Yet all proclaim that "theirs" is the right way.

Born in Dublin? The odds are pretty high that you are catholic. Born in Dublin, Georgia? The odds are pretty high that you are a protestant christian.

[WoVeU]

I understand what you're saying Spence, but you're starting off from a premise that assumes there is a creator when that may or may not be true. I realize that's what faith is all about, but if I say the universe revolves around a little invisible teapot in the center of the vast cosmos, you can't prove me wrong. Therefore, if there is a book written about the teapot meant to be an explanation of how things began, I can manipulate science to fit the book's interpretation.

I don't really pretend to know what to believe. I'm kind of playing Devil's Advocate, pardon the pun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

*Note I haven't read the posts beyond this one. But....Veto!

Wrong. And can be proven wrong. This however does prove one of my points, people of a non-science back ground, start evoking science this and that...because it sounds good and seems to add merit.

Eric, your one attempted one up-man-ship ran into a scientific conflict called gravity!

[WoVeU]

I realize that's what faith is all about, but if I say the universe revolves around a little invisible teapot in the center of the vast cosmos, you can't prove me wrong.

A little teapot? That presumes a creator, doesn't it? Plus, who would have a teapot if they weren't planning some sort of 'shin-dig' which implies, multipicity. Bascially, you have proven God exists, by your rather unorthodox (pardon the pun) analogy.

Strangely...I agree!

[WoVeU]

He is the most language challenged president that I have heard....

So.....He's slow in the head but able to put together a staff that can dupe an entire nation? A pretty conniving moron if you ask me

Obama and Biden aren't that great when they aren't behind a teleprompter. Say what you want about Bush, but Obama does some similar stuff. Special olympics, Iowa not Ottawa, 57 states or whatever it was, all of the presidents that are alive, children with asthma getting breathalyzers, etc. I'm going to assume you don't know what I'm referring to because you watch CNN and don't search "Obama screw-ups" on Youtube to laugh your rear end off at a president that you despise (I'm just guessing ). Bottom line is, when you have politicians giving speeches every day of their lives, they're going to screw up. Just like we would.

But I guess Obama is elegant because he speaks in vague generalities that don't mean anything.

Talk about science...he has got that down to a science!

[WoVeU]

I understand what you're saying Spence, but you're starting off from a premise that assumes there is a creator when that may or may not be true. I realize that's what faith is all about, but if I say the universe revolves around a little invisible teapot in the center of the vast cosmos, you can't prove me wrong. Therefore, if there is a book written about the teapot meant to be an explanation of how things began, I can manipulate science to fit the book's interpretation.

I don't really pretend to know what to believe. I'm kind of playing Devil's Advocate, pardon the pun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

I'm not saying that you accept all science at face value. I do know the science that says we evolve or adapt to our surroundings is very strong. Science can be manipulated. Not the facts but the theories. It is the fact that the earth is warming. As to what our envolment in the warming or what we can do to manage that - those are theories. I believe that we aren't as important to this planets survival as we think. I believe that we play a part, of course, but I believe the earth has the ability to fix itself. Whether or not that fix includes our survival in it isn't clear, but I believe the earth, the universe, and whatever else is out there will adapt and go forward. I remember in the 70's scientists saying we were on the verge of another ice age. Now we are on the verge of catastopic warming. The reasons given are mostly the same as then. Scientists tell us that the world will be a very different place in a thousand years. I believe that, it is very different now then a thousand years ago. Whether or not we are here will depend on our ability to adapt to what happens not our ability to change the path that this world has chosen. We give our selves way to much credit believing we can change the climate to something we believe is normal.

Great post, I was getting ready to go there if you or Donovan didn't. Science is theories....some have been practiced long enough (Newtonian Physics) that they are considered proven. (Even these, rock solid core, things with application, bases that are testable, and equations...intelligent scientists even admit there could be another system that could explain these as well and perhaps cleaner....but I'll say unlikely.)

Anyway...I've seen academia at work in science...and what they do...and what they do requires grants. Uh-hum....they lie. They falsify research, post hyperbolic measurements, the whole thing is ridiculous. And I have seen this first hand! Donovan I bet could tell you similarly, I've heard of many medical studies being perverted. but people here science and immediately bow...yeah, those people don't have a God, atheist my alpha 55. The god of PC. The god peer acceptance, the god of Fads and Fashion, Jehovah is not the only God/god of man's. (I thought on and did not assert the names often done in this type of statement, Buddha and Allah are not names of a gods/Gods.)

Science is taken as fact...and it cracks me up that they get to reinterpret and re-theorize (hypothesize) everyday, yet when a Christian, Jew, or Muslim does it, "it proves they were wrong". WOW, nice double standard. Science is at least looking at live and recorded data. For the most part Jehovah based religions are interpreting recorded word that has passed through language filters.

[WoVeU]

For me, I get my proof that God exists everyday when I take time to pray and receive that affirming strength and calmness that comes only from the Holy Spirit. That's all the proof I need. I know that many do not believe this and some would say that I am crazy. That's fine. I don't try to push my beliefs on others but I will share when asked. I can't imagine living my life without having faith in a creator and belief that there is something greater to experience after this life.

Derek...I have seen the documentary "Expelled" and was appalled at what happens to scientists who believe in creationism. Most don't speak for fear of what might happen...those that do speak are ridiculed and often times lose their jobs and their place in the scientific community. Ben Stein does a great job of just showing the facts of what is happening in our society today. Great watch!

Reaffirmation is the measure that gets it done on a daily basis. Tat gives me the daily push. I know I have had several people ask me how I do what I do. Performing well at many things, not fretting not worrying, ready to laugh and love, and not one darn bit afraid to fight or a wall of work or any other foe that wants to get in line. (Again, I dislike any implied pomp. I've always said anyone can do anything...you just can't jump into the 12ft end day 1.)

Now I am too fat at the moment, but I was gifted in the physical department. (Much sitting and much time spent on mental aspirations, music, designs, bible reading, science shows/some reading.) Any way, by my late teens (honestly I'd do anything for anyone, I am not mean, as associated w/ no care or nasty) I didn't take any crap off anybody. I'd jump into a fight with 10 guys. One night a friend and I were lined up against more than 30 guys (maybe more). One time I walked right up into a mans face who had a loaded .45. (I'm going somewhere.) Point 1, I am as far away from a person of fear as I have known.

I know people, sales techniques, BS , and the related. I didn't get giddy and emotional, I wasn't look for the meaning of life or in a spiritual chase, though I'd spend time in bed at night posing such questions towards the ceiling. I didn't seek out mentors and immediately put people in a position of influence in some reverenced light. I put those folks in some power position into a "we'll see but I'm doubting you" category. But one day me and my buddy went to the little church up the drive we stomped in my youth as invited by a friend and his dad. I knew most of these people and it seemed much like every other service I had been to. The altar-call came at the end, obvious as usual...we are almost out of here. I think he said something about Jesus being the only one who was ever perfect. I thought yeah, I know I am a mess and full of flaws, and kind of recall visualizing Christ in the opposite manner (it is all a blur.) Next thing I knew I was not in charge of my body. I got to my feet some how and on shaky legs I recall somehow being on the floor at the altar.

The daily stuff is good. But I'll never forget that event. And I am no blubbering sob guy. And nobody ever put me on my knees. And I knew people, and saw right through them (a gift I thankfully still retain. Anyone who knows me well would strongly attest to that.) Second to that experience, I had about a decade of dreams of falling and then being in a grave, from about 13 on. Now married, one night in bed at Fort Dix, I woke up frustrated from one of these events and thinking I had done everything I could to stop this dream. (I think I was haunted by some 7th Day Adventist picture of laying in the ground when you are dead awaiting the "church to be called up".) I asked God, if this was not how it happens to take this dream away. I saw some diamond shaped light (4 diamonds I think) and refracted light (all colors)...I attributed at that time to my eyes reacting to the dark and maybe some strange glare from a little light coming through the window and hitting the TV and dresser mirror or something. That was the last dream I ever had.

[WoVeU]

Sorry. And that was all to say it just wasn't pretty stories from a book and tradition. When I heard Bible stories and Jesus talk as a kid it was always along side argument. (Christians argue more among themselves than with others, nasty arguments.) So I kind of figured like BB, you gotta be kidding, wonderful stories, entertaining, show me. I was different in that I believed in a God, but what made the Christian version right. I mean many had some impressive stories.

I will say this, I have long thought on BB's point of religion/faith being geographical. I think that is shown to be like 90+% fact, depending on line drawing. Then you have Christianity, Islam, and Judaism saying that there path is the only way in to Heaven. But I would also say in my research, that Christianity is the only one that has an answer to this cultural, upbringing, and absorption/training/nurturing dilemma. (Note, I don't lump other "religions" in with the big 3, because Hinduism and Buddhism give me polytheistic problems in understanding them and retaining knowledge of them. The others, I categorize as philosophies, as I don't see them centered on God, but man.)

[Spence]

Lots of science is fact. I didn't mean that all science is unproven theory. Research is important and the findings of solid research shouldn't be dismissed because someone is working off of a grant. We have had lots of important findings in all areas. None of us would have ever meant on this board if it were not for science and research. What I am saying is we shouldn't take all findings at face value. We need to ask questions, look at the pros and cons and see what others are saying. Just because I say the most grass is green doesn't mean you shouldn't see for yourself. Every day someone doing research advances our way of life. Makes things better for everyone. We shouldn't just throw out the work because a grant paid for the research. I just think we tend to manipulate scientific findings to fit our opinions on things. The science may be good, but not necessarily the conclusions. I'm glad I can fly across the country in four and a half hours when needed. I'm glad someone discovered insulin so my daughter can live a reasonably long life. I am glad the someone invented a pacemaker so my mom can see her grandchildren grow up. Scientific research has had a huge impact on my life in ways I don't even think about. I don't ever want people to quit trying to advance our culture. I also believe God gave us the ability to help ourselves and a big part of that has to do with science. Also if you really want to be technical Christians, Muslims, and Jews pray to the same god. The god of Abraham.

[billybud]

Well...not really Spence. There is a huge theological break in the god being worshipped.

Jews and Muslims are actually akin as children of Abraham in the god that they worship. They worship a god that is the old testament god...unlike christians who have a tri-part new testament god..with a father, son, and holy ghost.

Both jews and muslims view Christ as a prophet and wise man, but not as god.

[Derek]

Well...not really Spence. There is a huge theological break in the god being worshipped.

Jews and Muslims are actually akin as children of Abraham in the god that they worship. They worship a god that is the old testament god...unlike christians who have a tri-part new testament god..with a father, son, and holy ghost.

Both jews and muslims view Christ as a prophet and wise man, but not as god.

Christians don't view Jesus AS God. Jesus is God's son. Read the part in the Bible when Jesus was baptized. The voice from heaven was God.

There is a whole 'nother discussion there, and it's too lengthy to go into by typing IMO.

[Spence]

Well...not really Spence. There is a huge theological break in the god being worshipped.

Jews and Muslims are actually akin as children of Abraham in the god that they worship. They worship a god that is the old testament god...unlike christians who have a tri-part new testament god..with a father, son, and holy ghost.

Both jews and muslims view Christ as a prophet and wise man, but not as god.

Christians believe that Christ was the vessel to get them to heaven. Muslims believe Mohammed had direct access to God. Jews are still waiting for that messiah. While they all believe in a little different access, the entity at the top of the chain is the same.

[billybud]

Spence...catholics are christian...the shamrock of St. patty was the tool to teach about the god that was three in one....in fact, the liturgy repeats.."God the father, God the son, and God the Holy Ghost" in prayer.

Actually the trinity is a feature of most christian denominations...

Wiki...

In Christian doctrine, the Trinity is the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead.[1] The doctrine states that God is the Triune God, existing as three persons, or in the Greek hypostases,[2] but one being.[3] Each of the persons is understood as having the one identical essence or nature, not merely similar natures. Since the beginning of the third century[4] the doctrine of the Trinity has been stated as "the one God exists in three Persons and one substance, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."[5] Trinitarianism, belief in the Trinity, is a mark of Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism and all the mainstream traditions arising from the Protestant Reformation, such as Anglicanism, Lutheranism and Presbyterianism. The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church describes the Trinity as "the central dogma of Christian theology".[5]

This doctrine is in contrast to Nontrinitarian positions which include Binitarianism (one deity/two persons), Unitarianism (one deity/one person), the Oneness belief held by certain Pentecostal groups, Modalism, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' view of the Godhead as three separate beings who are one in purpose rather than essence.

Historically, the doctrine of the Trinity has been of particular importance. The conflict with Arianism and other competing theological concepts during the fourth century became the first major doctrinal confrontation in Church history. It had a particularly lasting effect within the Western Roman Empire where the Germanic Arians and the Nicene Christians formed segregated social orders.

Like other terms expressing fundamental Christianity concepts, such as monotheism, the word trinity is not found in the Bible. The doctrine developed from the biblical language used in New Testament passages such as the baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19.[5]