Injuries
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Injuries
It seems to me injuries are much more prevalent all across the country this year. I don't have any stats to back that up--just based on anecdotal perception. Can anyone expand on that or know actual stats/facts? Anyway, assuming it's true, what are the potential causes for this (alleged) increased injury frequency? It seems strange that it happens concurrently with powerful rules changes, etc. to mitigate injuries.
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Spence
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Re: Injuries
I dont 'think that injuries are increased or worse this year. Some teams have been hit worse than others. Georgia comes to mind. Injuries are just part of the game. You just hope no one gets hurt badly.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain
Re: Injuries
Nobody really knows about the extent of injuries. The NFL covering up head injuries to the point of criminal liability is an example of what can happen. Colleges are not exactly the epitome of virture when it comes to telling the truth on most any subject and certainly this subject the "lilly livered" college presidents are of no help. (The abdication of their personal, moral and professional responsibilities to the NCAA with zero involvement would be one example of why you question's answer is still a mystery.) I suspect the injuries are more serious and long lasting rather than more plentiful. Enough editorializing, now to why I think there has been an increase in serious injuries.
Equipment. The equipment has improved and is purported to be like armour making players and coaches think they are invincible. So players hit with wreckless abandon because they feel no pain. As players have become bigger, faster and stronger, the hits are intensified. The problem is, the equipment is not as protective in every area as we think it is; so when a hit comes to a vulnerable area, the injury is more damaging. Helmets do not protect players from concussions. Raebock has come out witht the skull cap that measures the intensity of the hit. Where that is going, who knows but the fact you are measuring it is a lot like the town that argued should we put an ambulancde in the valley or a fence along the cliff. Helmets do not protect the brain from being josssled around. So with that, I think there is a sense of false security.
Took the NCAA five years to outlaw horsecollaring when everyone knew the outcome to knees with that type of tackle. The faster the player runs the more damage is done. Equipment does nothing to protect that, infact, it gives a handle to make it happen.
So the other side. If you played football without padding, the person doing the hitting would not hit very hard because it would hurt him and most are not into self hurt. With that said, equipment that gives the hitter no sense of pain allows his hit to be as hard as he can make it. And with increase speed and weight, the person hit as angles that just are not meant to be hit like that, injuries happen. Appendages are meant to bend in only certain directions.
Thats what I think is causing it. Do I think we should play without pads...no, I am all for protecting players. Is there a solution. Probably not as long as the fans demand more intensity in everything. ESPN does not make money showing curling. It is not ESPN's fault, they are a mere reflection of what the public demands and is willing to support.
Another time discussing "targeting" is a good subject. That of course happens because Coaches teach and demand it. But hiring coaches with moral fiber does not seem to be a requirement; boosters want wins.
Equipment. The equipment has improved and is purported to be like armour making players and coaches think they are invincible. So players hit with wreckless abandon because they feel no pain. As players have become bigger, faster and stronger, the hits are intensified. The problem is, the equipment is not as protective in every area as we think it is; so when a hit comes to a vulnerable area, the injury is more damaging. Helmets do not protect players from concussions. Raebock has come out witht the skull cap that measures the intensity of the hit. Where that is going, who knows but the fact you are measuring it is a lot like the town that argued should we put an ambulancde in the valley or a fence along the cliff. Helmets do not protect the brain from being josssled around. So with that, I think there is a sense of false security.
Took the NCAA five years to outlaw horsecollaring when everyone knew the outcome to knees with that type of tackle. The faster the player runs the more damage is done. Equipment does nothing to protect that, infact, it gives a handle to make it happen.
So the other side. If you played football without padding, the person doing the hitting would not hit very hard because it would hurt him and most are not into self hurt. With that said, equipment that gives the hitter no sense of pain allows his hit to be as hard as he can make it. And with increase speed and weight, the person hit as angles that just are not meant to be hit like that, injuries happen. Appendages are meant to bend in only certain directions.
Thats what I think is causing it. Do I think we should play without pads...no, I am all for protecting players. Is there a solution. Probably not as long as the fans demand more intensity in everything. ESPN does not make money showing curling. It is not ESPN's fault, they are a mere reflection of what the public demands and is willing to support.
Another time discussing "targeting" is a good subject. That of course happens because Coaches teach and demand it. But hiring coaches with moral fiber does not seem to be a requirement; boosters want wins.
Statistics are the Morphine of College Football
Re: Injuries
donovan wrote:...So the other side. If you played football without padding, the person doing the hitting would not hit very hard because it would hurt him and most are not into self hurt. With that said, equipment that gives the hitter no sense of pain allows his hit to be as hard as he can make it. And with increase speed and weight, the person hit as angles that just are not meant to be hit like that, injuries happen. Appendages are meant to bend in only certain directions.
Thats what I think is causing it. Do I think we should play without pads...no, I am all for protecting players. Is there a solution. Probably not as long as the fans demand more intensity in everything. ESPN does not make money showing curling. It is not ESPN's fault, they are a mere reflection of what the public demands and is willing to support.
You know, that's a very interesting perspective. It reminds me of perhaps the most extensive study ever done on seat-belt use. The results indicated that upon a collision, wearing a seat belt reduced both the likelihood and severity of injury, meaning injury and/or death is less likely per collision if one is wearing a seat belt. no surprises there. However, the data also yielded something very surprising: that after seat belt laws were passed, the number of collisions per mile driven skyrocketed. As a result, the number of deaths per mile driven (the most important metric to determine the efficacy of seat belt laws) actually went UP slightly. Hence, seat belt laws actually INCREASE a driver's probability of death or serious injury. No one knew the reason, but it was speculated that by virtue of the enhanced feeling of safety provided by seat belts, certain drivers (i.e., those who only wear the seat belt because of the law) felt secure enough to drive more dangerously, as evidenced by the fact that collisions per mile driven went up so sharply. This is very similar to your argument.
What is most unfortunate about the above, if true, then safe drivers such as those how would wear seat belts whether or not a law exists (or "safe" players, by proxy) are disproportionately harmed by the laws. Those who care about safety are in effect subsidizing the injuries of those who do not. Like you, I do not see a ready solution, but the obvious ones apparently are not going to work. in fact, those obvious solutions might make the problem worse.
The athletic team of my geographic region is superior to the team from your geographic region.
Re: Injuries
You may remember (if you are my age)...that there were deaths in the early (unpadded) days...
With 19 killed on the gridiron in 1905, there were calls for reform...some schools were dropping football...President Teddy Roosevelt got involved and the forerunner to the NCAA was formed and safety rules promulgated.
There have always been injuries...we are just now more connected to them...with a gazillion games televised, injuries shown over and over on replay, and then talked about on the internet and by sports talking heads, we are more immersed in the injuries.
With 19 killed on the gridiron in 1905, there were calls for reform...some schools were dropping football...President Teddy Roosevelt got involved and the forerunner to the NCAA was formed and safety rules promulgated.
There have always been injuries...we are just now more connected to them...with a gazillion games televised, injuries shown over and over on replay, and then talked about on the internet and by sports talking heads, we are more immersed in the injuries.
“If short hair and good manners won football games, Army and Navy would play for the national championship every year.”
Re: Injuries
See also: http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/h ... -1.1309671
This article claims on average 12 high school through college football players die on the field per year. It appears much of that is a result of heat, but still pretty shocking.
This article claims on average 12 high school through college football players die on the field per year. It appears much of that is a result of heat, but still pretty shocking.
The athletic team of my geographic region is superior to the team from your geographic region.
Re: Injuries
http://enfield.patch.com/groups/around- ... 36e650890c
This article mentions the events you discuss, but also notes:
"Nevertheless, injuries and deaths from football, though reduced, continued to plague the game. For example, the National Center For Catastrophic Sport Injury Research has reported that between the years 1931-2006 there have been 1,006 direct and 683 indirect deaths in America from playing football at all levels from sandlot to the pros -- more than 20 per year on average.
In addition, a 2000 University of North Carolina study showed that between the years 1977 and 1998 "200 football players received a permanent cervical cord injury, and 66 sustained a permanent cerebral injury." Furthermore, it is estimated that among high school football players alone between 40,000 and 60,000 concussions occur annually. In addition, many former NFL players suffer from early onset dementia and Alzheimer's Disease."
This article mentions the events you discuss, but also notes:
"Nevertheless, injuries and deaths from football, though reduced, continued to plague the game. For example, the National Center For Catastrophic Sport Injury Research has reported that between the years 1931-2006 there have been 1,006 direct and 683 indirect deaths in America from playing football at all levels from sandlot to the pros -- more than 20 per year on average.
In addition, a 2000 University of North Carolina study showed that between the years 1977 and 1998 "200 football players received a permanent cervical cord injury, and 66 sustained a permanent cerebral injury." Furthermore, it is estimated that among high school football players alone between 40,000 and 60,000 concussions occur annually. In addition, many former NFL players suffer from early onset dementia and Alzheimer's Disease."
The athletic team of my geographic region is superior to the team from your geographic region.
Re: Injuries
billybud wrote:You may remember (if you are my age)...that there were deaths in the early (unpadded) days...
With 19 killed on the gridiron in 1905, there were calls for reform...some schools were dropping football...President Teddy Roosevelt got involved and the forerunner to the NCAA was formed and safety rules promulgated.
There have always been injuries...we are just now more connected to them...with a gazillion games televised, injuries shown over and over on replay, and then talked about on the internet and by sports talking heads, we are more immersed in the injuries.
Dang...I remember....The only real injury that is alarming, I think, is head concussions. Not sure what the solution is, nor does anyone else seem to be. Like boxing, football is going to cause head concussions. It is inevitable. I have changed my opinion on youth football, however. I would not want my grand children to play youth football, I think that maybe should include high school. Let them play, unpadded flag football in the formative years. I hope you wear a helmet when you ride. Now that I think of it, spearing was banned in the late 70's, I think. What do you think about the issue with youth football, Mr. Billybud? Concerens?
Statistics are the Morphine of College Football
Re: Injuries
I most certainly do wear a helmet when I ride....and harass my riding friends if they don't.
Losing an arm or a leg is tragic...but nothing can be more tragic than a TBI (traumatic brain injury). You lose an arm and you are still you. A TBI may leave you not you. You could be someone with a much lower IQ, someone who has a different and maybe unpleasant personality.
I came to know a man who was a brilliant engineer who worked for General Electric before retiring. He was appointed by the Governor to Chair the Florida Rehabilitation Council. His son was also a brilliant engineer before his accident. The young man could now not make change and had comprehension difficulties. The very tragic part was that he remembered who he was and what he lost.
Managing his depression was a major part of his rehabilitation. And, while things may get better for him, he will never be who he was.
Losing an arm or a leg is tragic...but nothing can be more tragic than a TBI (traumatic brain injury). You lose an arm and you are still you. A TBI may leave you not you. You could be someone with a much lower IQ, someone who has a different and maybe unpleasant personality.
I came to know a man who was a brilliant engineer who worked for General Electric before retiring. He was appointed by the Governor to Chair the Florida Rehabilitation Council. His son was also a brilliant engineer before his accident. The young man could now not make change and had comprehension difficulties. The very tragic part was that he remembered who he was and what he lost.
Managing his depression was a major part of his rehabilitation. And, while things may get better for him, he will never be who he was.
“If short hair and good manners won football games, Army and Navy would play for the national championship every year.”
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Spence
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Re: Injuries
Our local6-10 youth football is flag. They start tackle at 11. There aren't many hard collisions because they teach form tackling. Head up tackling. They call head down hitting as a penalty. It doesn't completely illiminate all helment contact but it doesn't happen often.
The problem comes when they get older. When you have a 270# tightend with the ball and a 200# safety trying to put him down. That safety can't wrap and tackle, he isn't going to have the leverage. He has to use momentum and go high or low. He doesn't have to lead with his helmet but, there is going to be some contact to the helmet. If he goes low you are going to see an up tick in nasty knee injuries. Those won't cause any serious lasting injury, but they will likely end the players season, maybe career.
I don't know what the answer is, maybe require all players to be the same basic size. Yes, that is silly. So is this targeting rule and how it is I forced.
The problem comes when they get older. When you have a 270# tightend with the ball and a 200# safety trying to put him down. That safety can't wrap and tackle, he isn't going to have the leverage. He has to use momentum and go high or low. He doesn't have to lead with his helmet but, there is going to be some contact to the helmet. If he goes low you are going to see an up tick in nasty knee injuries. Those won't cause any serious lasting injury, but they will likely end the players season, maybe career.
I don't know what the answer is, maybe require all players to be the same basic size. Yes, that is silly. So is this targeting rule and how it is I forced.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain
Re: Injuries
Risk of injury is part of life. We face it everyday. Sports are a little diferent. I absolutely think expectations of the public encourages high risk behavior on part of athletes. Times change. Play is dirty, it probably always has been. See some of the face masks players wear. Why do players have plastic shield, because the don't wants fists in the mouths and spit in their eyes. Those pile ups are nasty. We try to protect players today, I think it has always been there. Baseball players use to sharpen their cleats; boxers put lead in their gloves and reportedly some players take steroids to be bigger, faster and stronger. I do not know the answer. I think I do, but no one listened when I was more in a position to influence. I still think there is a better way to help this...but that was then and this is now.
I do remember, speaking of injuries, when I would watch the Los Angeles Rams play football, they would always play an exhibition game in the Northwest, we would go and Norm Van Brocklin was the quarterback. The field was muddy and sloppy and at the end of the game the white uniforms of the Rams were mud brown, not a spot of white left, except for one, Norm Van Brocklin...his uniform was as white as he started...his offensive line was not going to let anyone touch him, and they didn't. Times have changed.
I do remember, speaking of injuries, when I would watch the Los Angeles Rams play football, they would always play an exhibition game in the Northwest, we would go and Norm Van Brocklin was the quarterback. The field was muddy and sloppy and at the end of the game the white uniforms of the Rams were mud brown, not a spot of white left, except for one, Norm Van Brocklin...his uniform was as white as he started...his offensive line was not going to let anyone touch him, and they didn't. Times have changed.
Statistics are the Morphine of College Football
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Re: Injuries
donovan wrote:I do remember, speaking of injuries, when I would watch the Los Angeles Rams play football, they would always play an exhibition game in the Northwest, we would go and Norm Van Brocklin was the quarterback. The field was muddy and sloppy and at the end of the game the white uniforms of the Rams were mud brown, not a spot of white left, except for one, Norm Van Brocklin...his uniform was as white as he started...his offensive line was not going to let anyone touch him, and they didn't. Times have changed.
I am going to change my name to Young Ducker after reading this.
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Spence
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Re: Injuries
Old Ducker wrote:donovan wrote:I do remember, speaking of injuries, when I would watch the Los Angeles Rams play football, they would always play an exhibition game in the Northwest, we would go and Norm Van Brocklin was the quarterback. The field was muddy and sloppy and at the end of the game the white uniforms of the Rams were mud brown, not a spot of white left, except for one, Norm Van Brocklin...his uniform was as white as he started...his offensive line was not going to let anyone touch him, and they didn't. Times have changed.
I am going to change my name to Young Ducker after reading this.
Me too! I was born the year he retired. I barely remember him as a coach.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain
Re: Injuries
The forces involved have changed as well....
NFL Defensive Tackles averaged in at 256 pounds in 1970...306 pounds by 2006 and still moving up.
Offensive Tackles averaged 259 lbs in 1970 versus 317 by 2006...
NFL Defensive Tackles averaged in at 256 pounds in 1970...306 pounds by 2006 and still moving up.
Offensive Tackles averaged 259 lbs in 1970 versus 317 by 2006...
“If short hair and good manners won football games, Army and Navy would play for the national championship every year.”
Re: Injuries
billybud wrote:The forces involved have changed as well....
NFL Defensive Tackles averaged in at 256 pounds in 1970...306 pounds by 2006 and still moving up.
Offensive Tackles averaged 259 lbs in 1970 versus 317 by 2006...
Absolutely....when Coriolis was teaching Mr. Billbud physics, he remembered well. Force over distance.
Statistics are the Morphine of College Football
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