Post-season Play-offs

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colorado_loves_football

Postby colorado_loves_football » Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:47 pm

Spence wrote:I don't have to do the math. In a playoff system two teams will play in the championship game every year. Those two teams will have played 3 or 4 games to get their depending on where or not there was a bye or not. So in fact there is a 100% chance of two teams playing 3 or 4 games every year.
You are partly correct, Spence, in that any team necessarily has to play in 3 games to win the BCS. But for an 'at large' team that goes up one, to 4. But the likelihood of that occurring, in any scenario is 25% at best. This is because 6/8 BCS 'slots' are already occupied. They have 6/8 probability of advancing or 75%. Now, if two 'at large' teams are paired in the BCS, a possiblity, then there's still a 25% probability of one of them advancing, but the winner still needs to win their semi-final. So the overall probability, in that event is likely smaller. 1/3 is what I gave that's a pretty 'heavy' estimate, and really doesn't address the fact that the BCS is already pretty 'lop-sided' toward the 6 BCS 'automatic' parties. 6/8 = 75% by anyone's calculator.
The 1/3 is actually a 'heavy' but fairly reliable predictor of an 'at large' advancing, to the semi-finals. I'm going to stand by it. After that, it's 50-50 odds, for either team.
I think that's why there's still something of a 25% chance TCU and OSU could have met, it doesn't really go down a lot for two teams, believe it or not. But I'm not a statistician, I'll leave that up to those who understand it a lot better than I do. Suffice to say, the liklihood for a 'non-BCS' title game is remote, if that, in case that's what you were afraid of, in the championship game.

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Postby Spence » Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:58 pm

That and $1.25 will by you a cup of coffee. What does the statistical probability of any of the teams having to play one or more games have to do with anything. It still means this system could not possibly used in the context of the bowls, to make a playoff work.

If you want to have a play-off you need to forget the bowl argument and focus on arguing how to set it up regionally to make it work. That is, in fact, the only way to set up playoffs to make sure they would be supported by fans.
Last edited by Spence on Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Spence » Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:36 am

Pros and Cons of a playoff series vs. BCS

Pros:
1. Would bring CFB into conformity with other major sports.
2. Would end split championships.
3. Lets more then two teams have a shot at a championship.
4. More money would be paid out. Less teams playing post season would mean less costs for the schools.

Cons:
1. Would gut, if not destroy, the bowl system, which allows 56 teams -- almost half the teams in D-1 -- to declare their season a success by reaching the post season. Half of those being able to finish with a win in post season.
2. While playoffs would bring in more money on the surface they would diminish alumni contributions that are usually gotten during bowl weeks.
3. Could diminish interest in the regular season. College footballs regular season is the most meaningful and drama filled in sports. (what impact does Duke's loss this weekend have on the ba-ball playoffs?)
4. The college game would become more commercialized and professionalized.
5. Traditions would suffer.
6. A 16-team, four round playoff would be during many final exams and extend the season into the second semester. Players would be harder -pressed to be students.


Anyone care to add something?

Remember amateur athletics is more about the quest for winning then it is about winning.
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Postby Jason G » Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:46 am

I would add a "1a" to your list of playoff cons. Having more teams have the ability to win their last game means more seniors have the chance to end their careers with a win and a game they can look back on for the rest of their lives. After all most college football players do not go on to play competitively at a higher level.

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Postby Spence » Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:51 am

I agree. consider it added.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

colorado_loves_football

Postby colorado_loves_football » Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:03 pm

Spence wrote:Pros and Cons of a playoff series vs. BCS

Pros:
1. Would bring CFB into conformity with other major sports.
2. Would end split championships.
3. Lets more then two teams have a shot at a championship.
4. More money would be paid out. Less teams playing post season would mean less costs for the schools.

Cons:
1. Would gut, if not destroy, the bowl system, which allows 56 teams -- almost half the teams in D-1 -- to declare their season a success by reaching the post season. Half of those being able to finish with a win in post season.
2. While playoffs would bring in more money on the surface they would diminish alumni contributions that are usually gotten during bowl weeks.
3. Could diminish interest in the regular season. College footballs regular season is the most meaningful and drama filled in sports. (what impact does Duke's loss this weekend have on the ba-ball playoffs?)
4. The college game would become more commercialized and professionalized.
5. Traditions would suffer.
6. A 16-team, four round playoff would be during many final exams and extend the season into the second semester. Players would be harder -pressed to be students.


Anyone care to add something?

Remember amateur athletics is more about the quest for winning then it is about winning.
Yeah, I would like to add 'something' but suffice to say I think you are wrong about it, if you are implying a ten-team BCS 'playoff' would necessarily 'ruin' college football, I believe that's not a fair analysis, in any respect.

Do you actually read my posts?
My proposal (again) is as follows:
Utilize 6 EXISTING bowls, for BCS purposes.
I would prefer the following bowls be represented: Holiday, Liberty, Rose, Fiesta, Sugar, Orange.
Those are existing bowls, Spence, or in other words 6/9 games would be 'traditional' pairings. I don't even care how the bowls themselves decide to pair the teams together, that's their perrogative.

Now, apply this to last year's BCS and look at what happens.
Eleven teams were BCS 'eligible' or at least were in the 'mix'.

My 'resolution' to pair Utah and Boise St. together honors the BCS 'tradition' of selecting teams from major conferences.
And it also addresses 'access' for teams traditionally not part of the BCS.

You may not like my proposal, that's your right, but attack it on legitimate basis, not television ratings.
For that matter, let the bowls themselves decide if its a good idea or not.
Your game (Ohio St. vs. Notre Dame) got a higher TV rating, but not so much higher as you implied. I checked your numbers, they weren't entirely reliable, despite your position to the contrary.

My 'source' was part of a report done by the NCAA and included numbers associated with the bowls attendance, and televison ratings.
You present numbers that likely were localized to Ohio, valid numbers, but not national, or if they were they were either 'peak' or 'valley' figures. But there's no way to know for sure, you don't mention your source. But you can believe what you want, I don't know that I care.

Then, you accuse me of calling a 75% capacity stadium a 'sell-out' (I never did), I simply stated that in the Mountain West Conference 36,000 fans in a 46,000 stadium isn't too bad, all things considered, and it's not..
To compare them to a high school team is pretty low, even for you, but think what you want, TCU beats a majority of the teams they play and have a better home winning % than Ohio State does. Attribuite that to the caliber of teams they are playing, but don't call me a liar, I'm not.

One final thing, I did do a statistical analyis of my proposal, and what I found was fairly enlightening at least to me. I was close to being correct in my preliminary 'estimate' that the odds favored the BCS teams by a 2/3 margin, but I didn't have the statistics to back it up.
Statistically, the probability two 'Big 6' teams meet in the title game is of the order of 5/8, or somewhere around 63%.
The other interesting thing, at least in my opinion, is how equally well the other two possibities were addressed, 3/16 probability for each.
In other words it's 3/16 probability two 'at large' teams advance to the BCS 'title' game, and 3/16 probability one 'Big 6' and one 'at large' team meet. That's something of the order of 18%, which is less than the 25% I had presumed to be accurate. Like I said, I had to 'recalculate' my numbers.
A ten team bracket would be a lot better than a 16-team one, in a lot of respects. For one thing, I believe a 16 team bracked requires 15 games, too many for my taste. For another, in my proposal, 5/10 will likely play in EXACTLY one game. Maybe that's obvious, but only 5/10 will likely have to play any additional games. Of those, only 3 are likely to have to play 3 games. And only one is likely to have to play 4, although as many as two can, and would 18% of the time.
It's my opinion that adding two 'semi-final' and one BCS 'championship' at the end of the BCS would make it better. For all intents and purposes, the only thing lacking are the two semi-final games, sandwiched between the 'existing' BCS and the 'added' title game.
That means, only two games separate this year's BCS from what I propose, two 'regional' games if you prefer.
That's not a lot to ask for by most people's standards.
But I can't make you 'like' my proposal. I simply let you watch the games play themselves out and make up your own mind.
But, it's interesting to me, how well it would work.
Perfectly? No. Any proposal has pro's and con's.
Better than what's in place? Almost certainly.
Better than a 16-team playoff, definitely.
Better than a 64-team playoff, only if you are a traditionalist, which I am.
If you don't like it that's your right, but the numbers tell a different story.

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Postby Spence » Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:54 pm

http://www.bcsfootball.org/index2.cfm?page=tvratings

I rechecked the ratings and the Utah-Pittsburgh playoff had a 7.4 so I was wrong. You were wrong when you said that 5 ratings points isn't that much.

While a play-off can be installed to work in CFB it cannot be put into use using the bowls because of the travel involved. D-1AA schools practice at home and do not travel to sites until game day and the playoffs are set up regionally. Which would work for 1-A too if they wanted to do it that way.

You can't take a college football team on the road for 3 or 4 straight weeks. They can't be away from school that long. If you want to think playoffs you must embrace that fact that they would have to be conducted regionally.

Finally CLF, I post a lot. I did on the old board too. I will probably always post alot if I have something to say. That won't change whether or not I am a moderator. If you think that I have done something unfair to you or someone else while moderating this forum, I would suggest you PM the admins. and complain about it. They are willing to listen to any and all complaints about me on anyone else you feel may have slighted you. They also have made their E-mail available so it is very easy to get a hold of them.

What I post here is strictly my opinion. It isn't a reflection of the forum or the site.

The Pros and Cons I used here weren't mine, although I agree with them. They are some of the opinions of coaches, players, ADs, college presidents and media put together by USA Today. If you would like to read the whole article let me know and I will post a link.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Postby Spence » Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:08 pm

spence, first and foremost - you know i'm all for a play-off system. i just want to comment/question on some of your points.

1. bowl games = successful season. if ohio state goes 7-5 and reaches the alamo bowl (like michigan did) would that be considered a success ? let's face it. if you're not in the BCS the only thing making a bowl game does is allow for 4 more weeks of practice.

3. diminish the regular season. how ? you would still have to win a great amount of games to be included in to a 16 team playoff field. think about it, if you lost more than 3 games in a 16 team playoff system, you're not make the playoffs.

4. more commercial. again, how ? currently, we have nike swooshes on uniforms. coaches are taking money from shoe companies. notre dame is probably the most guilty of commercialization(nbc, champion shirts, etc).

5. how ?

6. why ?


Sorry about putting you whole post up 88, It makes it easier for me to follow the questions.

#1. - Would I consider it a successful season? No, but a lot of teams fans would. There are teams and fans of teams that do consider going to a bowl game and winning a successful season. There are fans of teams, like ours, who aren't happy unless we win it all. Notre Dame fans are probably worse, because at least we will except a conference championship as a successful season. For ND it is NC or nothing. (not that there is anything wrong with that)

#3 Yes would would still have to have a great season, but under the playoff system you could lose one, two, or maybe even three games and get in. The current system barely allows for 1 loss. Every single game counts, even if you lock up your conference, you cannot afford to rest anyone. You have to play.

#4 OK, you have me here. As I stated above, I didn't come up with these on my own, it was part of a series in USA Today with some of the powers that be in CFB. About the only thing that would make CFB more commercial is players signing marketing contracts.


#5 The best example is the most selfish with me. The Ohio State-Michigan game would matter as much. Say Michigan was 10-0 coming into the game and Ohio State was 7-4 going no where, beating Michigan and knocking them out of the NC picture is part of the tradition and vice-versa. Rivalry games wouldn't have the same meaning.

#6 D-1AA don't play as many regular season games. The conferences would have to be cut down to eight to get a fair champion. (I have no problem with this either.)


88, be honest. Do you think that playoffs would help or hurt the mid-majors?
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Postby Spence » Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:48 pm

Yes, I agree that it would help in that case, but if there were no bowls and only a playoff, Utah would have been able to work themselves into position. That extra few weeks of practice before the bowls is as much for next years team as it is for getting ready to play a bowl game.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Postby Spence » Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:50 pm

A few quotes in favor of the bowl system.

PS: I didn't make these quotes up, I really don't have the IQ to make stuff like this up. 8)


"The bowl system provides rewarding postseason experiences for far more student-athletes than will ever play in a playoff. We should continue to nurture that system and to permit our student-athletes to enjoy the many benefits of the bowl experience without requiring them to play what is, in effect, the equivalent of an NFL season."

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"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain

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Postby colorado_loves_football » Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:52 pm

Spence wrote:http://www.bcsfootball.org/index2.cfm?page=tvratings

I rechecked the ratings and the Utah-Pittsburgh playoff had a 7.4 so I was wrong. You were wrong when you said that 5 ratings points isn't that much.

While a play-off can be installed to work in CFB it cannot be put into use using the bowls because of the travel involved. D-1AA schools practice at home and do not travel to sites until game day and the playoffs are set up regionally. Which would work for 1-A too if they wanted to do it that way.

You can't take a college football team on the road for 3 or 4 straight weeks. They can't be away from school that long. If you want to think playoffs you must embrace that fact that they would have to be conducted regionally.

Finally CLF, I post a lot. I did on the old board too. I will probably always post alot if I have something to say. That won't change whether or not I am a moderator. If you think that I have done something unfair to you or someone else while moderating this forum, I would suggest you PM the admins. and complain about it. They are willing to listen to any and all complaints about me on anyone else you feel may have slighted you. They also have made their E-mail available so it is very easy to get a hold of them.

What I post here is strictly my opinion. It isn't a reflection of the forum or the site.

The Pros and Cons I used here weren't mine, although I agree with them. They are some of the opinions of coaches, players, ADs, college presidents and media put together by USA Today. If you would like to read the whole article let me know and I will post a link.
Spence, first of all I would like to apologize if I insulted you in any respect. I mostly appreciate what you say, although many times I have a different opinion on the matter, which you are likely already well aware of.
Thank you also, for citing your reference here, I was interesting in seeing how the varying games of done in the BCS, in general, and you were correct the Fiesta Bowl pairing Utah and Pittsburgh wasn't a very good rating, but it was a fairly lop-sided game, but no excuses, it placed last.

Now, with respect to the proposal I suggested, whether or not you agree with me, it's still a better proposal than a 16-team playoff, at least if you are a traditionalist, and that's why I favor it, over that format.

6/9 games would likely be played in existing bowls, I suggested the Holiday and Liberty Bowls be used for practical reasons, but any two bowls would work. But since we have data accessible for those two games, I like utilizing them as reference points.

Now, I'm going to try again to explain to you why a ten-team format is 'better' than a 16-team one. For one thing, a ten-team format requires only 9 games for it to be a 'success'. That's a fact, 9 games are sufficient for a ten-team 'field' meaning, 6/9 games or 67% would be played in 'existing' bowls, and giving them a say in how teams are paired together, similar, but not identical to how it's done presently, but if nothing else the same 'qualifying' criteria could be applied.

You mention a team necessarily having to travel 3 or 4 games. Well, the probability a team would necessarily have to play in 4 games is only of the order of 36%. I'm pretty sure that's right, but I"m not a statistician, but it seemed correct, and is proportionally accurate, regardless. So, I'm sticking with it. Another way to look at it, is 5/8 or 64% of the time, two BCS 'automatic' qualifiers are likely to meet in the championship game.
It's even possible to get that higher, by simply pairing the 'at large' winners together in a BCS bowl, Fiesta Bowl being the most likely venue.
That raised that number even higher to 82%. And 18%, or 3/16 would then become the probability associated with having an 'at large' play in the BCS title game.

So, the figures of the 2005 Fiesta Bowl pairing Utah and Pittsburgh are important, they give us an idea as to how well an 'at large' pairing of teams might fare. Even the 2006 Fiesta Bowl had a similar 'edge' to it, competitively-speaking. Both OSU and Notre Dame were 'automatic' qualifiers, but so were Utah and Pittsburgh. But one, obviously was a higher draw than the other, and probably for good reason.

So, if your position is that somehow having a 'mid-major' appear necessarily 'ruins' the BCS, I guess I can't agree with that assessment, but you have a right to your opinion. The fact that the Fiesta Bowl had the lowest television ratings associated with it isnt' a good sign, but I imagine it was profitable. I think a ten-team plaoff would likely have comparable ratings to those already connected to it , traditionally.

The semi-final and 'championship' games have yet to be played, but if we apply the standard toward 'previous' NC games, if nothing else we safely conclude that there is a market for those kinds of games.
So, I can't agree with you, Spence, on your presumption that somehow a BCS 'grouping' of teams, pairing teams equally, would necessarily 'ruin' anything at all. As far as those statements, Harvey Perlman, works for the BCS, so I don't think his statement is very objective. Dennis Francione, in my opinion is something of a crap, sorry to have to put it that way. Yes he was TCU's coach but they are better now that he's gone, to my way of thinking, there's a reason Alabama didn't keep him, and his days are likely numbered at A&M, although they did play Texas tough.
Mike Leach is a coach who supports a 64-team playoff. I don't hear much of that 'batted-around' but that's the format I would apply, myself.
So, what I propose, really is sort of a compromise, between a playoff and the 'traditional' BCS, but modified to allow for 3 'additional' games.
I think it's a far better solution than either the 16-team or 'traditional' format where no team plays more than one game.
64-team requires 6 weeks, 63 games. 16-team requires 4 weeks, 15 games, 10-team requires 4 weeks, 9 games.
Compre the first one with the 'traditional' model, 28 games, 56 teams.
Comparable team participation, approx. twice as many games.
Second model (16-team format) : 15 games is approx. 1/2 total (28), and only approx. 1/4 teams.
Third model (10-team format): 9 games (or 1/3 total) requiring approx. 1/6 number of teams. Don't you see how much more 'balanced' it is?
There's harmony to my proposal, the numbers reflect it.
If you want to keep the 28 'game' format in place, simply maintain 19 existing bowls, and allow the 3 games played 'post-BCS' to serve as bowls. Or, even better, make the two-semi final games, regional games., and keep 21 bowls. Nothing is lost, a 'concensus' national champion is gained. Not a bad solution to an ongoing problem, if I do say so myself.

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Postby Spence » Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:59 pm

I read that the other day 88 and you are right about the comercialization and the trashing of tradition that went along with it. Before the season, either last year or two years ago, SBC tried to get sponsorship of the Ohio State - Michigan game. Both schools were willing to sell the rights of the game and the B-10 was behind it. That is until "we the people" had a major fit. All the angry alumni, fans, and students from both schools had their voices heard and they decided it wouldn't be right to sell the rights of the game. That is why there is no SBC Ohio State - Michigan game. The game has never had a name, the winner gets no trophy, and it is and always should be about pride.

Playoffs would make more money up front, no question. I still think it would hurt alumni donations though, especially for teams who don't make the playoffs. Then there would be the question of the split. Teams and conferences making the playoffs would want a higher share of the money then the ones who didn't make it. This would cause alot of trouble. Even if they would be getting more money they would want a higher percentage of the take, to keep up with the Jones, so to speak.

CFL, I am not questioning your math. What I am saying is that every year two teams would have to play 3 to 4 games. Not many fans, including me , can afford to take off 3 weeks of work to make 3 trips to different locations across the country. Almost no students could do it. Students traveling to the bowl game over Christmas break is as much of a tradition as the games themselves.

Also I am not arguing a 16 team playoff vs. a 10 game playoff. I prefer the same 1 game playoff we have now. Still if they get an 8 or 10 game playoff do you really think they will stop there. (the NCAA B-Ball playoff didn't start at 64) Instant replay started as something that was ran by the officials and is now developing into a tool for the coaches.

I don't think having a mid major "ruins" the games. I have no problem with a mid major getting in, if they are ranked high enough. What I said about mid-majors, using TCU as an example, is that some mid majors have trouble selling out there own home games and sell out 3 games in a row would be very difficult. You rightly pointed out that some teams from major conferences don't sell out either and it would be a problem for them also.

My main point about your proposal would be that you can do it using the bowls, because of the travel invoved. March Madness doesn't even try to get fans to travel across country for three weeks. In order for your proposal to work it would have to be set up regionally. That way fans would be more apt to make the trip for most or all the games.

Also as I have said, the powers the be that would set up a playoff would select the teams much the same way as they do it now. Why would the people who set this system up be any more inclined to set it up differently for a playoff? There would have to be a wholesale change of power at the top to make the selection changes you propose. It just won't happen that way.
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Postby Spence » Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:24 pm

That article never actually said who the player was, so we don't know for sure it was a player. Even so, I would imagine that most players would rather have playoffs. If I were a player I would want to have playoffs, unless I were one of the top two. After they playoffs really started, though, I would think there would be 109 team's players who would opt for the bowl system.

Teams that think they got screwed by the BCS always want playoffs. If there were playoffs, teams that thought they got screwed by the playoff selection would want bowls. It is human nature. The grass is always greener on the other side.
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Postby mountainman » Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:51 pm

Not only is the letter not signed, but you would think that if someone was going to take the time to compose and write it they would at least make the effort to find out the appropriate person or title to address it to.

The BCS is governed by three groups: The Presidential Oversite Committee, that has a chairman, the Conference Commissioners, that has a coordinator, and an Athletic Directors Advisory Group.

I'm not saying it's not authentic, but those kind of things do raise creditability questions.

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Postby Spence » Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:23 pm

I took it as not being authentic the first time a read it. Still I would think a lot of players would rather have a playoff. Being for a playoff would make you feel like you had some control over being the national champ.

If there were 50 or 60 teams in D-1A instead of 119, I would probably be for a play off. With that many teams there would be enough interaction between the conferences that you could have a legit chance of deciding who the top 8 or 10 teams would be.
"History doesn't always repeat itself but it often rhymes." - Mark Twain


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