The Ten Commandments

[WoVeU]

You wouldn't happen to be referring to Gravette, Ark would you?

WoVeU...how do know about Gravette...little bitty down in Northwest Arkansas.

Everyone has heard of Arnold Murray......

Well not quite everyone hasn't heard of him. But donovan is on it. Gravette, Arlansas is the location of the Shepherd's Chapel. Arnold Murray (and his sons) broadcast to the world from there. Until I got to Texas I watched him about everyday. He sits at a desks and reads the Bible to the audience, explains things, and of course gives his opinions. Some people really dislike him, number one because he preaches that there is no Rapture. Secondly, he believes in the Serpent Seed Doctrine. And then he also believes a Christian can drink alcohol as long as person is given to drunkenness and riotous behavior.

I think others are confused or concerned about his cross-over studies into the lost tribe(s) of Israel. His related beliefs, which he doesn't say 100%, on the Stone of Scone (the Coronation Stone), and he also has gone into theories on Josesph of Arimathea (Jesus' Great Uncle) and his ownership of tin mines in Great Britain. His findings of Jewish characters from the Aleph Bet among Indian petroglyphs in America, general Native American religious studies and comparisons to Christianity and Jewish beliefs. He brings pieces of these up as asides from time to time, people who don't care for his doctrine always find fault in these observations.

I like the man because he doesn't practice hand-me-down theology (as best I can tell). He seems to do what I do, reads and reads, and looks for context and if thing makes sense as you build up the whole picture on a read from Genesis through. (And he preaches greatly against taking a verse hear and a verse there with no check sums and sewing them into a single thread and doctrine.) I liked him from the first time I watched because he was given to teach over preach, so much so, that even when they run a sermon it is highly teachy over preachy. For me preaching often means, you better listen to me or you are going to be in trouble. Teaching is, I can tell you what I have found on this subject and how i believe it ties into the greater mass. And I find the latter works better in the Why and How. The latter works to gain credibility, the former demands authority!

[WoVeU]

Oh, and I don't follow Arnold Murray or anybody else. I also listen to Hagee who is just about his polar opposite.

I follow Jesus Christ and I do that poorly, so if I attempt to follow another man, that just compounds the error. People often say they don't follow another man yet I think they do so more than they would think...or else they would say Jesus says much more than they would say, Preacher says.

-I don't agree with Murray that Christ was quoting the 22nd Psalm on the Cross.
I believe that David was prophesying, and that is a big difference.
- I don't agree that Moses is the 2nd witness. For some of the same reasons I don't believe a Rapture is likely to occur.
(There are 2 witnesses, and there are only two men who never died...Enoch and Elijah. Moses, Noah, and Job all died...if it was good enough for them then I think it is good enough for me. I don't think God removes you from trouble, I believe God carries you through trouble.)

And these kinds of things get away from core Christianity and are the things people argue the most on and we get denominations from the difference in opinion.

Alcohol - I am sure about this one (of the things that people argue on this is the one that concerns action, and these are by far most important to me). I am sure it is fine to drink, when you control it. Wine is the symbol of blood for a reason, especially the Blood of Christ. I wrote an article on this, which basically says, grape juice (not discerned from "wine" in the scriptures) is not that symbol. Grape juice naturally contains bacteria...only one other fruit has this attribute (the plum) and thus only 2 fruits can make true wine. But bacteria is unclean...but when you pierce the skin and crush the grape then seal it in a container (do these thing sound familiar, metaphorically) the bacteria feed on the carbohydrates and render alcohol...don't we use alcohol to clean. The latter is the real picture of the cleansing Blood of Christ...not wine. Sometimes, often times, we have to look for answers indirectly.

[WoVeU]

Being a Christian is not a tribe. It's about a relationship with God.

Well...your point is well taken, except for the 12 tribes of Israel which hold a fairly significant place in Christianity as well as Judaism. There is nothing inherently wrong with being a member of a tribe. A fairly common religious term.

Maybe we should write Arnold Murray to have him tell us where he thinks the Lost Tribes of Israel are hiding!

I understand....I just felt that he was saying that being a part of a tribe, meant that they were mind numbed idiots who do what their leaders tell them....that might be true for some...how else do you explain people still sending money to Robert Tilton.

Some in my "tribe" say that it's wrong for me to enjoy a Guinness, I say it's not....It's a personal choice that I make, and it's not popular with everyone. Most Christians are not as tribal and doctrinally stamped as some think.

I don't know if Arnold is anything like Dr Gene Scott....holy cow that guy could cuss and smoke a cigar like no one else.

If I am an idiot, I am an idiot of my own making. If I have to answer for something, I'd prefer to answer for my own thoughts and actions.

[WoVeU]

Being a Christian is not a tribe. It's about a relationship with God.

Well...your point is well taken, except for the 12 tribes of Israel which hold a fairly significant place in Christianity as well as Judaism. There is nothing inherently wrong with being a member of a tribe. A fairly common religious term.

Maybe we should write Arnold Murray to have him tell us where he thinks the Lost Tribes of Israel are hiding!

I understand....I just felt that he was saying that being a part of a tribe, meant that they were mind numbed idiots who do what their leaders tell them....that might be true for some...how else do you explain people still sending money to Robert Tilton.

Some in my "tribe" say that it's wrong for me to enjoy a Guinness, I say it's not....It's a personal choice that I make, and it's not popular with everyone. Most Christians are not as tribal and doctrinally stamped as some think.

I don't know if Arnold is anything like Dr Gene Scott....holy cow that guy could cuss and smoke a cigar like no one else.

I think saying humans are tribal is a true statement. We do tend to stick together as families, communities, states, etc.... We follow the rule of law as a group. Humans are basically a tribal people. We feel a kinship with long lost cousins we meet at family reunions. People we may never meet again or have nothing in common with except an ancestor at some point in our personal history.

I agree with you on the beer thing. I preacher told me one time that having a drink isn't now or ever has been a sin. Having lots of drinks is where the line gets crossed. Same with gambling. Spending a couple of hundred on slots or a blackjack table isn't any different then spending a couple hundred on dinner - if you have the money, it is OK. If you spent your mortgage payment, then either one would be wrong.

Not all that hard is it! And applies rather globally to consumption and the things we do. I always believe that means it is closer to truth than something you have to if, and, but to death then apply to specific, or very specific, instances.

[Dossenator]

You wouldn't happen to be referring to Gravette, Ark would you?

WoVeU...how do know about Gravette...little bitty down in Northwest Arkansas.

Everyone has heard of Arnold Murray......

Sorry..I lived 5 miles from Gravette for 28 years and I have never heard of the man.

[WoVeU]

I believe that no matter what religion we may practice, we all serve the same God - or we don't serve him. He gave us free will to decide if we would follow him or not. It isn't my job to make people believe, I can only take care of me. I'm not sure belief in God is something you can really argue about successfully or should even try to argue about. Too many wars over that really basic belief already.

Arguing in the non-classical sense is a waste of time, nothing gets resolved, usually the opposite...people just get more entrenched in their differences. However, when people don't discuss and share, nothing changes. Something I have been noting at my new job. We now live in a world where the people we see the most, co-workers, we can not talk about anything that matters long term: politics, philosophy, and religion. (We should also throw in PC here and understand how that ices this big cake.) What we do talk about: sports, local news (car wrecks, murders, flu outbreaks, etc.) and what the stars are doing. No wonder I end up talking about sports so much! So the irony is, the world gets smaller and we associate more, and the we actually are growing further apart. When you don't discuss and communicate on things only two things can happen. You get millions of independent ideas (unchecked against contrary takes) or you get nothing, no thought in those areas at all. NOTHING else can happen. Check against the physical. Let us say you can't advertise products, and you can discuss what products you buy with other people, and you are not allowed to look in anyone's buggy at the store (or their cabinets or refrigerator at home), people who work at the store don't stock the shelves at all, and you check yourself out. Now let's flash forward 20 years, there used to be say 5 or 6 major brands of paper towels...how many would we then have! There is absolutely no way there are more than the base outcomes I stated, and different proportional mixes from those. 0 chance, it would defy all logic!

As a Christian I find this to be the most important thing that tells me the world is running the last leg and we are in the home stretch. AND Satan has the whole thing formed into a non-compete atmosphere. People seem to misunderstand that Satan doesn't need you to be unhappy or in pain, that is not his goal. We can be as happy as pigs in $#!%, pun intended. Our world culture can now only impact economic cohesion, in the things we need and the things we greed. And we are moving from country and cultural alignments in the world to company, sector and industry alignments...and the chase becomes more and more of the economical consideration. Then too we have went through the 50's and 60's vortex and we are on the road again to working more than ever and that is increasingly becoming most people's social interaction point. And you can't talk about substantive things outside the functions of work. "God can you get the lights on your way out!"

[WoVeU]

You wouldn't happen to be referring to Gravette, Ark would you?

WoVeU...how do know about Gravette...little bitty down in Northwest Arkansas.

Everyone has heard of Arnold Murray......

Sorry..I lived 5 miles from Gravette for 28 years and I have never heard of the man.

I figured. Happens a lot. Religion and church things are not something you frequently run into anymore from geography. The television is the last frontier for religion. People have to tune into to it, often from happenstance, we can have it out there cavorting around now can we!

It sounded to me like Shepherd's Chapel did well enough to buy a dish and a transmitter while it still had a small geographical foot print. I figure it helped out that Murray had a successful farm and did not take a salary from the church (still hasn't).

[Spence]

I believe that no matter what religion we may practice, we all serve the same God - or we don't serve him. He gave us free will to decide if we would follow him or not. It isn't my job to make people believe, I can only take care of me. I'm not sure belief in God is something you can really argue about successfully or should even try to argue about. Too many wars over that really basic belief already.

Arguing in the non-classical sense is a waste of time, nothing gets resolved, usually the opposite...people just get more entrenched in their differences. However, when people don't discuss and share, nothing changes. Something I have been noting at my new job. We now live in a world where the people we see the most, co-workers, we can not talk about anything that matters long term: politics, philosophy, and religion. (We should also throw in PC here and understand how that ices this big cake.) What we do talk about: sports, local news (car wrecks, murders, flu outbreaks, etc.) and what the stars are doing. No wonder I end up talking about sports so much! So the irony is, the world gets smaller and we associate more, and the we actually are growing further apart. When you don't discuss and communicate on things only two things can happen. You get millions of independent ideas (unchecked against contrary takes) or you get nothing, no thought in those areas at all. NOTHING else can happen. Check against the physical. Let us say you can't advertise products, and you can discuss what products you buy with other people, and you are not allowed to look in anyone's buggy at the store (or their cabinets or refrigerator at home), people who work at the store don't stock the shelves at all, and you check yourself out. Now let's flash forward 20 years, there used to be say 5 or 6 major brands of paper towels...how many would we then have! There is absolutely no way there are more than the base outcomes I stated, and different proportional mixes from those. 0 chance, it would defy all logic!

As a Christian I find this to be the most important thing that tells me the world is running the last leg and we are in the home stretch. AND Satan has the whole thing formed into a non-compete atmosphere. People seem to misunderstand that Satan doesn't need you to be unhappy or in pain, that is not his goal. We can be as happy as pigs in $#!%, pun intended. Our world culture can now only impact economic cohesion, in the things we need and the things we greed. And we are moving from country and cultural alignments in the world to company, sector and industry alignments...and the chase becomes more and more of the economical consideration. Then too we have went through the 50's and 60's vortex and we are on the road again to working more than ever and that is increasingly becoming most people's social interaction point. And you can't talk about substantive things outside the functions of work. "God can you get the lights on your way out!"

The last leg may be tomorrow, two years from now, or ten thousand. We aren't given the answer. We mostly agree on the basics. I don't believe many literal translations, but I believe that the guide to follow is there.

[billybud]

Being a Christian is not a tribe. It's about a relationship with God.

Who is defining christian here? Not me. But, sharing a common culture or system of belief does define one usage of the word tribe.

Of course, my thoughts won't translate to any zealot who fixates so solely on belief so as negate or not understand common english usage. The use of the word tribe denotes more than just the clan groupings of biologically related people. The word tribe is also used in a broad usage aspect to describe people with with a common character...If you want to fixate on your faith, be my guest. But being "tribal" can mean, in the broad sense, a people with a commonality.

2: a group of persons having a common character, occupation, or interest..e.g. a tribe of graduate students.
3: a category of taxonomic classification ranking below a subfamily ; also : a natural group irrespective of taxonomic rank <the cat tribe> <the rose tribe>

My thinking?

We are the product of several thousand generations of humans shaped by the social order brought by extended families and clans. Just a blink of a eye ago, we depended on family and neighbors to be our social structure. Even in 1900, my Wisconsin german ancestors, lived in a large farmhouse with multiple generations. Others of the family lived on adjacent farms. The area was one of german speaking farm families who all assisted each other with harvests, barn raisings, and emergencies.

Certain aspects of industrial and post-industrial life, including the necessity of living in a society of strangers, have run counter to our prior human experiences of being members of a larger family or clan group. There has been some general breakdown in the social structure of modern civilization due to more frequent moves for economic reasons, longer commutes, smaller family units inhabiting housing, and fewer community bonds.

In some ways, a church community may be the equivalent of an extended family. A group of people who gather together at intervals, who care about others in the group, who provide social opportunities for the members of the group, and who can provide support when needed.

You are a christian (and I would guess, a protestant christian), and you should have a feeling of comfort in your group. And more so even than if you were with another christian group who may not be as "like you" in beliefs (say a sub group like catholics). For example, my reserved episcopalian friends don't feel as comfortable at a church espousing more charismatic beliefs, with attendants who speak in tongues and are seized by the spirit, etc.

Again...I did not define "christian"...but, being a christian will qualify one to be in the christian tribe (as the english word is used).

[Spence]

I think that is fair.

[Eric]

I'll share my thoughts (although I don't think anybody really cares )

I don't dispute what Billybud is saying. I don't know if my "filters" are going off, but Christianity as I see it is not the problem. "Christianity" is not responsible for imperialism and murder because it pretty much preaches the exact opposite. Humans have done things in the past in the name of Christianity, but it doesn't mean the religion itself is responsible.

And that goes for any person who calls themselves a Christian as well. Just because some slaughter occurred in 1492 doesn't mean the Church is inherently bad or that Christianity is violent. There's no need to deny facts just to protect the image of your faith considering the true practice would denounce such things. It also doesn't mean you're responsible. Just because I'm a white American male (and 1/16 Cherokee ) doesn't mean I have oppressed people in the past.

[billybud]

No...being "christian" doesn't mean that you are bad..nor that you have oppressed people....BUT..nor does it mean that you have not been bad nor are blame free

That has been my point. Do you think that the Nazi's thought of themselves as "Nazi's" with the same pejorative meaning we now project? I doubt it.

Being christian does not mean that one is on "automatic" and will not do wrong..heinous wrong.

Have you ever wondered why the good christian boys of "C" company at My Lai lined up and gunned down 374 men, women, children and babies? Gang raped young girls, brutally bayonetted, beat, and tortured old men? I know that I have. That incident remains as an impression for many of my age. And maybe it influences my thinking of tribalism and otherness.

I can see "collateral deaths" since, as a Marine, I knew that returning fire at a group that hides within a civilian population could cause innocent deaths. But even the most crazed Marine "gunners" I knew did not , ever, line up civilians in a ditch and gun them down. Nor blast down a running three year old child. You ever wonder how those decent young guys in C Company, a lot like you and me, became monsters? I have.

My point has been that I do not believe that any one religion can claim that they are morally superior to another group or person from another group. I do believe that the first time that you start to espouse that your group is set above others, that is the first step to becoming a monster.

[billybud]

Unless you are talking BCS conferences vs non BCS..LOL

[Spence]

I think that lots of people think because they are Christian (or any other religion), that they have "right" on their side. They may have started with right on their side, but they may not cross the finish line with it still in tact. Just because someone believes in God, doesn't mean they automatically become God-like. In fact I would contend that believing in God should have the opposite effect on a man. Man cannot be like God. We can do our best to be as we think God would like us, but we can never be like him. I believe, I have all my life. I am about as far from perfect or God-like as you can get. I try do do the right things, sometimes my pride keeps that from happening.

[WoVeU]

The Nazis...you want to talk about your cults gone crazy! Biggest ever! That whole thing is quite the study on the human condition!

I think anybody that could line-up innocent people and shoot them in cold blood is not operating on any moral compass. That is somebody appointing themselves as God. But I certainly get your example...no Religion has elevated its people to appoint where ALL practice goodness...and you can still find cases of pure evil! Situations like that are especially sad for me, I can't find a path for justice following that. An eye for an eye falls rather short in many ways...and for this kind of mass evil...their just ain't enough eyes. In this case I would argue several of these men were lacking much in the way of religion or morality before finding themselves next door to Hell. I still think that is something the Military doesn't have a good answer for, High Moral training...because law, the UCMJ, and the Geneva Convention only go so far! If it doesn't come form within...when it really counts and is really needed...it just doesn't come. In real pressured situations things don't come from without! 1 thing I do know...if you want to be a good Christian, Jew, Buddhist or whatever...doing it when it ain't easy is when it really counts.

BB, can you recall any attempts in your training where they tried to address stopping that motor, stifling the anger, and practicing high self-constraint?
I know they train on things quite the opposite, pushing though the fear, action over inaction, and stomping out the flight response portion of human nature! I've never been in war. But I've been in serious situations involving staring at what is at least potential death. And the middle ground...not flight, not fight, but stopping and processing and thinking is what is called for. I know that is not easy and goes against the grain.