Very Interesting Read

[Eric]

I don't know if you have the time to read this or not. It's not an article, it's more like an essay, but....:

http://74.125.45.132/search?q=cache:Rb-sOmKT-DEJ:www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa594.pdf+myth+of+the+rational+voter+pdf&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Something tells me Fluiddude will be the only one with enough patience to read all of it

[Derek]

Good article. But I believe that Americans have been lied to. We are NOT a Democracy, at least not in the sense of "majority rule".

I have stated before, and I still believe that our founding fathers did NOT intend us to vote for the President or the Senators, and especially the Supreme Court. Mainly because they knew these exact things. The Constitution of the United States WORKS!

The problem today, is that we DO NOT stick with it as it was intended....it is a shell of what it was originally written to mean.

If you go look at the elections of the first presidents....the choice for President was not on the ballot. When Andrew Jackson, a Democrat, cried that he won the "popular vote" but not the election (sound familiar??), forgot to mention that he was not EVEN ON THE BALLOT in 6 states (look it up). A fact that the History Channel and Andrew jackson failed to mention to you.

The Constitution does not provide for the Senators to be elected by the people, they are to be elected by the State legislatures. The ONLY people you voted for was the House of Representatives, and you voted every 2 years...(Which is why ALL spending bill MUST originate in the House and not the Senate). If you don't like how money is being spent, they can be thrown out of office quicker.

So I agree with the idea that the people are too shortsighted to vote in the long term interest of the country. Myspace, Facebook, Twitter, etc....do not help these causes. Everybody wants something and they want it now. "It's my right" is a common phrase.

I encourage you to check out the following quotes from this site...They were smart people folks....smarter than us.

http://www.marksquotes.com/Founding-Fathers/

[Eric]

Obama's policies are in direct violation of the author's "make-work" bias. He can go out and tell the people how many jobs he can create, when many are funded by the government. That's just more redistribution of wealth that sucks up tax dollars for initiatives that many don't support. Very anti-market.

And speaking of the Founding Fathers, this is a group of people that revolted against a tyrant for......Taxes! Everything imaginable was taxed to the point where it made living a normal life very uncomfortable. This administration and Congress wants to tax everything higher from electricity to soda. It's madness.

[billybud]

What the authors miss in this essay is that the American voters do not really have to have sophisticated political knowledge...

We vote our pocketbooks. When things are going well for much of the American people, we vote for incumbents. When things aren't going well, we throw the rascals out and vote for folks who we think will make life better. And political parties, like all organisms that desire to continue, will either make the people more comfortable, or be marginalized.

One of the problems with the system is that there are really only two party choices, and if both parties fail to differentiate significantly, the rascals coming in aren't a lot differnt from the rascals going out. That's when a Perot type figure jerks everybody up.

Now, with the Republican party in disarray ( having an immediate ex president almost universally ridiculed, with the party having been shanghied by religious fundamentalists, with the changing demographics in America favoring the growth of minority populations) it may be a while before the Republicans can again come forward with rational social and economic policies that capture the interest of a majority of the public.

[Spence]

One of the problems with the system is that there are really only two party choices, and if both parties fail to differentiate significantly, the rascals coming in aren't a lot differnt from the rascals going out.

They are exactly the same. We don't have two parties, we have just one - the spend until we're broke party.

[Eric]

Billybud, I respect your opinion but disagree that the Republican party is "too far right". Trust me, I dislike religion interfering with politics and it bugs me when people criticize Obama for not going out of his way to recognize National Prayer Day (even when the Bible says praying is something you do in private ). I just don't see how people are being oppressed by religious fundamentalism (outside of gay marriage rights, of course). Abortion I see as a moral decision, just like murder, robbery, etc. I don't really consider myself a practicing Christian and it still bugs me that the choice of a person (and let's call a spade a spade, an often selfish decision) is more important than a life of someone who doesn't get a choice. Bush may have worn his religion on his sleeve, but who did he deprive of rights in the process? Can you give an example of how his "religious fundamentalism" denied rights of people? You still have the right to not agree with his religion and you won't be put in detainment camps.

Even with that said, the Democratic party is the one I believe is too radicalized. Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, and Howard Dean, the ones who are involved with most of the party leadership, are basically zealots (Reid may just be misguided, but Pelosi and Dean are most definitely zealots). The Democratic party oppresses people economically and halts production for votes. The Republicans keep up the charade of family values and religion (to which many lefties view as being a bible-thumper) to get votes. Bill Clinton is apparently a very morally unsound individual when we get Gingrich, Sanford, and Craig doing things they claim they are opposed to.

And Spence is right, the two-party system was designed to keep people in line. It becomes ineffective when the two parties do the same things while tugging on heart strings of different sympathies to get into office. The article did say that the politicians have to appeal to the knowledgeable voters because the uninformed will usually split the vote (the hippie will vote for Obama while the redneck will go for McCain, neither really knowing why).

[Dossenator]

Eric...are you calling me a Redneck...oh wait...I probably am.

On a serious note...Nancy Pelosi scares me. I can not believe she is #3 in line. It is hard for me to say this but I much prefer Obama to Pelosi any day...and I don't think too highly of Obama.

[Eric]

You're a hippie aren't you? You live in California

I'm not saying people who voted for McCain are rednecks. I'm saying uneducated voters who voted for McCain probably fit into that category. Same with Obama, although more times than not they are under 30 somethings that don't know any better

[Derek]

I agree Eric, and fail to understand how the Republican party has become radicalized or hijacked by Christians. No one can name ONE instance of a person having their rights violated because of Bush's policy's, either from a religious point of view or from the Patriot act point of view. Bush DOES NOT deserve the abject hatred and derision that has been heaped on him since he won in 2000, and he did win.

As far as abortion goes, I believe it's a states rights issue. Roe needs to be overturned and each state allowed to decide whether it will allow it, and what the circumstances are for it to be allowed, just like it was pre 1973. Most legal experts that read the 1973 opinion by Justice Harry Blackmon realize that the opinion and the reasoning for the Federal guv-mint getting involved were pure bunk. I would encourage you to read it sometime, it's pure hogwash.....Part of the problems with our guv-mint today is that the Congress, nor the President understand the 9th and 10th amendments. And abortion is just one of the issues that fall into this problem, you CANNOT govern everyone the same way. It's NO ONE in California, Oregon, or Washington's business whether or not abortion is allowed or not in Georgia.

And IMO, that's basically what happens when the Feds step in and make policy on issues such as this...It's the people of Cali, Nevada, Washington, New York, forcing their will down the throats of others that don't like that policy.

Having said all of that....I say it's still wrong for the Fed's to BAN abortion across the board. Overturn Roe and leave the issue alone. It has not place in the national discussion.

[Spence]

I think we get to wrapped up with social issues on both sides. In Ohio they banned smoking in public places. We voted on it. The ban won. I don't like smoking. My grandfather and grandmother died from it. My dad died from it. I voted against the ban. Just because I don't agree or like something doesn't mean I need to tell other people what to do or how to live their lives. People who own these businesses should have the right to decide.

[donovan]

The problem with the current political parties is there is not one that reflects the general belief of any individual.

I have been a Republican for most of my life. Ten years or so I decided, this party does not reflect my views, it does not in general fight for what I believe. (Nor do the Democrats). I found greater frustration staying aligned with the Republicans because I did not want to defend their position taken in Congress. I suppose I am in belief, a small "l" libertarian...the party is wacko..) I subscribe to Austrian economics and think we have give up our individual moral responsibility to government that now believes they are morally superior to the individual.

The article makes several interesting points, one on which I comment. A statement was made that no one cares about the trade deficit between my butcher and me. This is absolutely true and to a great extent a commentary on what is wrong. There was a time when local businesses were supported by locals. You dealt with the butcher who got laundry for a local who hired the local help who bought meat at said butcher shop. Mr. Billybud is right, we voted with our pocketbooks and then it was a great vote. Because if the butcher's daughter needed help or there was personal problem, a lot of people were intimately involved to remedy the situation. We know vote for the big box store low price, care little about anything else. Economics is not a mathematical science, is a social discipline.

[Spence]

Until people start acting as individuals again things won't get better. We should be in charge of our lives. If unforseen circumstances cause us to fall, our families should be the ones who help us pick ourselves back up. Government should build roads, bridges, and enforce the law - and let us do our thing.

[Derek]

Well said.

[Eric]

I think we get to wrapped up with social issues on both sides. In Ohio they banned smoking in public places. We voted on it. The ban won. I don't like smoking. My grandfather and grandmother died from it. My dad died from it. I voted against the ban. Just because I don't agree or like something doesn't mean I need to tell other people what to do or how to live their lives. People who own these businesses should have the right to decide.

I agree totally, Spence. I mean, a government that can tell you what to do with your body (mostly without harming others) and where to do it is one that's too overreaching. I think it's illegal to grow a certain amount of produce on YOUR property because of the regulations of the agricultural markets. Don't quote me, I don't have the greatest grasp on how price floors work

[Spence]

We just need to move away from the institutional mindset and into a individual mindset. We need to stop expecting an institution to solve our problems. It isn't possible because we are not clones. We are all different with different problems and situations. There is not one gold medal solution for everyones problems, they must be attacked individually. We are not a one size fits all country.