ND student dies at football practice

[Dossenator]

Hold on!

I don't know why this light bulb just went off...but AD Swarbrick was there! So, unless the President of the University was there...we have the guilty party!
Now Kelly could be distracted, potentially, and not notice a kid with a camera anymore than the kids manning the water and towels...an AD is and should always be suit and tie, desk jockey first, leader, manager, risk assessor of the first order!

The only reason he hasn't been fired is because it would certainly point to an admission of responsibility.

I tell you what will be key, how long was he up there? You can see those things sway a football field away. If he was only up there 5 or 10 minutes, eh, but 20 or so...???
Were there people scurrying around battening down the hatches, securing things, putting things inside...????

He was on it for an hour if I read all the reports correctly....he sent a tweet after being on it for 30 minutes to his parents saying he was terrified....30 minutes later it fell over. Every adult on staff present at practice should be fired. No way they did not see that thing swaying for an hour. Also, what idiot decided that 60 mile an hour wind gusts were a good condition to practice in.

[donovan]

This appears to be gross negligence on the school's part. This was not an incident that just happened...These winds were building up........Terrible. I agree with Doss.....

[Spence]

This appears to be gross negligence on the school's part. This was not an incident that just happened...These winds were building up........Terrible. I agree with Doss.....

I agree - and not to speak ill of the dead - but personal responsibility has to play some part. If he was up there and the winds were building and the lift was swaying, why did he stay up there. If someone ordered him up - they have big problems. I just can't imagine someone a position of power, making him stay up there. I do understand that whoever he reported to should have told him to come down, but when you are in a dangerous situation at work, it is your first responsibility get yourself out of that situation.

[WoVeU]

I hope when they review his "tweets" that the he had friends and family (parents especially) telling him to get his but down. And he didn't comply or didn't receive the tweets (I don't know how it works.) But I shudder at the thought that my son could possibly tweet or something (or perhaps even call) and I didn't get it to tell him to get his but out of some circumstance anything like this. (No fault of course, but just living with the "what ifs"...man that could crush a spirit a long, long time!)

[WoVeU]

This appears to be gross negligence on the school's part. This was not an incident that just happened...These winds were building up........Terrible. I agree with Doss.....

I agree - and not to speak ill of the dead - but personal responsibility has to play some part. If he was up there and the winds were building and the lift was swaying, why did he stay up there. If someone ordered him up - they have big problems. I just can't imagine someone a position of power, making him stay up there. I do understand that whoever he reported to should have told him to come down, but when you are in a dangerous situation at work, it is your first responsibility get yourself out of that situation.

I have to think being around football guys doing "tough" work all the time, the kid could have easily been attempting to display ultimate courage in the face of fear...and take his turn at being tough! (A different sort of peer pressure...totally misplaced I'd think, but could be.)

[Dossenator]

This appears to be gross negligence on the school's part. This was not an incident that just happened...These winds were building up........Terrible. I agree with Doss.....

I agree - and not to speak ill of the dead - but personal responsibility has to play some part. If he was up there and the winds were building and the lift was swaying, why did he stay up there. If someone ordered him up - they have big problems. I just can't imagine someone a position of power, making him stay up there. I do understand that whoever he reported to should have told him to come down, but when you are in a dangerous situation at work, it is your first responsibility get yourself out of that situation.

I have to think being around football guys doing "tough" work all the time, the kid could have easily been attempting to display ultimate courage in the face of fear...and take his turn at being tough! (A different sort of peer pressure...totally misplaced I'd think, but could be.)

I agree. I stated before too that it took me a long time to feel confident talking to people who were authority figures. Maybe he was afraid to tell the coach....hey, it's scary up there and I fear for my safety.

[Spence]

But more afraid of the coach then maybe dying? I do agree that whoever told him to go up there and film practice should have made sure he wasn't trying to do it in those kinds of conditions. But he has to come down when the conditions start getting bad and to hell with anyone who says he can't.

[Cane from the Bend]

Well, the Indiana chapter of OSHA is now investigating the incident.

I will say; I was mistaken, in that, they were on the practice fields, not in the stadium... however, they were using the outside practice fields ( obviously ), and should have been inside.

The lift was in the endzone, where they had discussed putting in towers to film from... which they didn't.

The candle mass for him was held last night, thousands of people attended, there was standing room only; his parents are in town, as well his brothers and younger sister ( she is a student attending notre dame ).

The announcement that ND will play their game vs Tulsa this weekend, and the irish will be wearing a memorial patch in his honor.


.

Now, let me point this out:

The winds were high, but not so much "picking up".

We had strong bursts of wind all day long; however, the winds we had the day before were stronger. There was a tornado watch in effect from 5:00 until 12noon the day prior to this accident.

The winds were heavy all night long, and though, there were moments of calm air, nothing so long standing that one could pretend we had safe conditions...

This was a horrible tragedy , but in no way was this not avoidable.

I am frustrated...

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[Spence]

The fact that there was a tornado warning tells you all you need to know about the conditions. Also no matter what OSHA will hammer ND unless he was tied off on the lift. Not that it would have helped. Also most scissor lifts have stabilizing legs that are supposed to be used when the platform is extended. Lots of times people on them do not use them because you can move back and forth if you aren't using them.

[WoVeU]

The fact that there was a tornado warning tells you all you need to know about the conditions. Also no matter what OSHA will hammer ND unless he was tied off on the lift. Not that it would have helped. Also most scissor lifts have stabilizing legs that are supposed to be used when the platform is extended. Lots of times people on them do not use them because you can move back and forth if you aren't using them.

I've been on several that didn't have legs. But I wonder, I'd lean towards it having legs and they were being used. I would think it would come down in 30mph winds on grass. Every time the wind gusts it packs the turf a little more on the wheels opposite the side the wind is coming from. And I keep returning to the thought of how it was positioned. Guys, I have NEVER seen a square one, not even close...they are rectangular usually, like 30" x 80". If that 30 inch side is into the wind, I just can't see it getting blown over?!?! It would take a hurricane or winds that first beat against it enough to place it near broad side in the wind!

[WoVeU]

Naah, I have been looking. The cherry pickers (boom, crane style lifts) generally have the legs. I didn't find one scissor lift that did. So I'd have to guess it was length wise in the wind to make it as long as it did. (My mind was picturing the 12' to 16' ones I have used by far the most) but this one could have been 20' to 30' extended. Depending on the wheel base and how firm the ground was anything over 18' is still doomed.

[WoVeU]

In all of this I am with Spence on the self preservation point. Biggest fear wins! You have to fear physics more than some man, or even a group of people. Okay, maybe you get up there, but the first time you nearly soil yourself, time to egress!

You know one of the defining factors in growing up is when the day arrives that you fear something more than your parents. I thought I was a man when I was 15 or 16, as I didn't have too much fear for my parents. At 17 I feared God more than my parents, my life was never the same.

Teaching fear is a tough thing. I have used my children's fear of me to teach other fears, from things that would burn them or cut them when they were babies, to fearing me more than a bully in order to teach them to fear get bullied more than bully. I will always recall the day I applied this, I don't remember the punk kid, I can only see my sons face and the tears in his eyes when I pull that memory up...it broke my heart then and it still does! This is why we are supposed to have news,it should make us think first and foremost, we are supposed to learn from events. (We far too often skip the learning and get right to the knowing, and find any piece of I told you so, or I knew it, in the message.) I pray my kids have well adjusted and prioritized fears...I just sit here and think of all the preservation these provide. This will push me to talk to my kids tonight...I want my kids to have only necessary fear, because I want them to be free!

[donovan]

There is no second guessing this insane situation. Who hasn't been scared where they were but more scared to move. Gross negligence on many peoples part. What were they doing practicing in these conditions? Common sense has not been in the United States for a long time...and college football even longer.

[Spence]

There is no second guessing this insane situation. Who hasn't been scared where they were but more scared to move. Gross negligence on many peoples part. What were they doing practicing in these conditions? Common sense has not been in the United States for a long time...and college football even longer.

I agree that many dropped the ball. I'm pretty sure Notre Dame has indoor practice facilities. As for the lifts, I know Ohio State has towers they do overhead filming from that are at the practice facility. Notre Dame isn't a poor school, I can't believe they are using lifts for this purpose. If James Madison were using lifts, I would totally understand their use. Now, using them in these conditions........well lets just say this video co-ordinator (his "boss") is five foot eight standing in six foot of water. People are going to try and put this on the coach....and I agree that it probably wasn't the best decision to practice outside..........but the coach isn't thinking about the kid filming. He isn't paying attention to that at all. He is concerned with his players. This kid was like the groundskeeper or the janitor. They may see them around, but they probably never talk. It is well documented that I'm not a ND fan, but I don't think the decision to practice and the decision to put this kid on a lift are one in the same. The decision to practice....absent a tornado hitting.....didn't put players at risk necessarily. I was out in those same conditions that day playing golf and while it wasn't much fun hitting a golf ball that day at no time did I feel unsafe on the ground. On the other hand, no way would I want to be standing elevated on any platform, especially one not bolted to the ground.

This was just a situation that required some common sense and one that got none of that.

[Spence]

This is from Jason Whitlock; http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefootball/story/notre-dame-must-fire-brian-kelly-over-student-death-102910

I can see the AD in deep trouble over this - he is over the athletic department. The athletic department is over what happens in the athletic dept. The head coach is over the football team. Sometimes the head coach becomes the face of the program, but I don't see this as is responsibily at all. He decided to have football practice in windy conditions. That may have set in motion a series of events that resulted in a kids death, but he didn't tell that kid to get on a lift. I would bet he wasn't consulted about it at all and I don't think he should have been. The video co -ordinator should have consulted the AD and the AD should have told him to not to let the kid on the lift. Common sense, this isn't rocket science. It is the kind of thing that managers - like the AD - should be used to handling. It is a 2 second decision. 20-30 mph winds - possible gusts to 60mph - don't let him go up on the lift ----next.