If....!!!!!

[RazorHawk]

I guess I didn't realize the BCS goal was to be FAIR. I thought it was to pit the two top teams in the National Championship game. I must have missed the FAIR memo.

[Eric]

Official statement regarding what the BCS is designed to do:

The Bowl Championship Series (BCS) is a five-game showcase of college football; designed to ensure that the two top-rated teams in the country meet in the national championship game, while creating exciting and competitive matchups among eight other highly regarded teams in four other games.

The humans basically control the outcome of the BCS. The humans can use whatever criteria they want to rate teams and I'm arguing how they ought to determine the opponent for LSU (provided they get there).

[billybud]

It's not about the resume per se. It's about who they're going to be going up against--The same team that beat them already. It's not about being "fair" to Alabama; it's about being fair to LSU.

Again...LSU and Bama battled to a tie in regulation....they are a clear #1 and #2 right now. Maybe it is not being fair to LSU to not allow them to prove that they really are a better team than Bama. I would like the fifth quarter in the French Quarter. It would be the premier match up that much of the country would tune in to watch...probably set viewing records.

[billybud]

All LSU proved vs Bama is that their kicker didn't pull a kick while Bama's kicker was off...not much bragging rights when half of the south is still debating that Bama is the better team.

If Arkansas can pull off a win, it will be a very interesting three car smaxh up in the SEC West...

[Cane from the Bend]

Eric, I don't even think you realize that your entire argument makes my point stand quite a bit more firm, each time you post.

It's not about the resume per se. It's about who they're going to be going up against--The same team that beat them already. It's not about being "fair" to Alabama; it's about being fair to LSU.

This is precisely the fear I was talking about.

I guess I didn't realize the BCS goal was to be FAIR. I thought it was to pit the two top teams in the National Championship game.

Exactly.

That is suppose to be the goal. The intent is to find the two best teams in the nation.

If the mass majority seem that second team as being Alabama, then I do not see how Oklahoma St has sufficient expectation.

Sometimes a methodology has to be reformed to get the result one seeks. If you deny Alabama, even though your perception of Oklahoma St is a less deserving choice in three out of the four criteria which you used to compare them, then who is being fair?

Hey, stuff happens. Teams get upset. This isn't making an excuse for Oklahoma State because they failed to "get it done." They did fail to get it done. But not anymore so than Alabama who also happens to be 11-1

But then say

Does Alabama have a better resume? Yes. Is Alabama's loss better than Oklahoma State's loss? Yes. Is Alabama probably better? Yes. I won't deny any of these things

Is an absolute contradiction.
Especially to add

but to ignore the fact that you are putting the integrity of the regular season in jeopardy by giving Alabama a do-over is a bad thing in my book.

Because, by the definition of, getting the job done on the field, Alabama did not do less than Oklahoma St.

Rather, by your own admission:

Alabama has a better resume
Alabama's loss is better than Oklahoma State's loss
Alabama is probably better

And their only mistake, losing by 3 points in overtime to the #1 team in the nation.
Yet, you mention Oklahoma St did not get the job done.

How do you propel them ahead of Alabama with the admissions you yourself made?

Is it anymore fair to LSU to not know for sure, whether or not you're better than Alabama, when half (if not more) of the country is thinking the better team lost that day?

Maybe, just maybe, it would be more fair to LSU to give them the opportunity to finish the discussion by settling it once and for all. And to do so against the team many believe are better.

Maybe, it is more fair to LSU, to rematch against Alabama, instead of having people make excuses for them.

Hiding behind the integrity card is low.

Because, if the integrity of the season is in jeopardy because of a rematch. Then how can the integrity of the National Championship game hold up, when you put a team up against an opponent who is only perceived to be the #2 team, because you didn't want to see a rematch; and not because they deserve the #2 ranking?

However, all this is pointless.

Your mind is made up. And so is mine.

I will watch the rest of the season, and if all plays out the way things look on the surface, in the end of the day, none of it matters. Because neither you, nor I have an actual say in the outcome.

And if something else happens; Oklahoma beating Okie St - Virginia beating Va Tech - Arkansas beating LSU - Auburn beating Alabama --- then we'll have something else to chew on.

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[RazorHawk]

Cane,

Well said, pretty much my exact feelings on this issue. Let the games happen and chips fall where they may.

I don't think there is anyone, other than a Bama or LSU fan that really wants a rematch, but if everything points to them as the best two teams, don't manipulate the polls just to keep a rematch from happening.

[billybud]

I am not a SEC fan, I want the two best teams in the country to play for it.

Always have.

I don't care if you are in the same conference, a non AQ conference (if your SOS warrants it), etc.

If we set up a system with the computers rating, and those algorithmns are set years ahead, I have no problem with going with the computers. If we have a system using human voters, I have no problem with human voters unless there is outright manipulation.

But, once the system sets up the "best two"...we should play them.

Not making a change after we don't like the two that the system picks.

[Vileborg]

Computers are programmed by humans. The computers don't independently think LSU is the best team in the country. They are programmed to value the things that LSU is doing but they are incapable of evaluating the intangibles.

There is a lot of football to play. Let's get through this weekend and see where we stand. three of the top 5 have big games this weekend. I remember how fervently we argued about Boise St. last year and then Nevada ended the discussion. I think this controversy is good for college football because it gets us talking about it. I've enjoyed the back and forth discussions.

[Cane from the Bend]

Computers are programmed by humans. The computers don't independently think LSU is the best team in the country. They are programmed to value the things that LSU is doing but they are incapable of evaluating the intangibles.

Those computers are pre-programed; they are not subjugated to information other than numbers, not human interpretation. Those presettings happen in the preseason. Information added is not altered by opinion, rather, basic numeration. As the program is notreconfigured once the season has started.

don't think there is anyone, other than a Bama or LSU fan that really wants a rematch, but if everything points to them as the best two teams, don't manipulate the polls just to keep a rematch from happening.

&

I am not a SEC fan, I want the two best teams in the country to play for it.

Always have.

I don't care if you are in the same conference, a non AQ conference (if your SOS warrants it), etc.

If we set up a system with the computers rating, and those algorithmns are set years ahead, I have no problem with going with the computers. If we have a system using human voters, I have no problem with human voters unless there is outright manipulation.

But, once the system sets up the "best two"...we should play them.

Not making a change after we don't like the two that the system picks.

That is precisely how I feel.

It is not that I am arguing so much for Alabama. Rather, for the #2 team.

I do not care who that #2 team is. I just want the game to be what it is supposed to be. The two best playing for the title.

That is the design of the system; to determine who those best two are.

If Alabama is not #2, and it is for reasons that occur in the next two weeks, for football performance, then great --- let the system we have reflect it by putting the next best team into the game.

However, if after all is said & done, both Alabama as well as LSU win out, do not change the system to reflect a manufactured #2 team.

I don't care who the #1 & #2 teams are; so long as they are the best two teams as determined by the system in place.

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[Derek]

I'm still standing behind my No Alabama point.

There better be some poll manipulation to ensure that Alabama is NOT #2 or I will join Chancellor Adams (UGA) and the Houston chancellor in the Anti-trust lawsuit.

I don't care how good Alabama is or isn't. Not the point.

[Cane from the Bend]

If the BCS format changes to what they have been considering:

The BCS will only hold a Championship game between the #1 & #2 ranked teams.
The Orange Bowl, Rose Bowl, Sugar Bowl, and Fiesta Bowl will not be tied to the BCS.

You will find yourself standing alone.

As, all of the Bowl games will become independent negotiations with conferences and respective Football Bowl Subdivision teams.

Hence, the antitrust & anti-trade argument against the BCS becomes nullified.

Derek,

I understand your frustration. But at some point, you have to let go of the past. Holding a grudge against the BCS in one circumstance that did not favor the team you support, but only when another team could receive entry into the title game under similar conditions is a little backwards.

You're fine with the BCS now, even though Georgia didn't get the nod then.
But you will change your mind, because Alabama does.

If you tell me you want to do away with the BCS because you do not agree with the system (like many have stated) I'll respect your opinion.

If you tell me that you are only going to say the BCS needs to be done away with in the event Alabama gets into the national title game, not because they do not deserve it, but because it didn't work that way for Georgia a couple of years ago --- then I'll not consider your point of view, as it is total slant, filled with personal bias.

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[WoVeU]

Let me throw in. If you are going to have a champion and no playoff then I feel the whole thing should work to figure out the best TEAM. And that is not always going to align with a NC game that pits the best 2 teams against each other. Because with no playoff, that is still based on perception. If a team beats another team in their house, even in 9 overtimes...the evidence says the winning team is the better team. A rematch is a 2nd bite at the apple, but it is more than that. It isn't just a chance to reprove...it is a chance to go .500...and .500 is a line that things tend toward. If you have 2 teams that are close, even rather close....the .500 outcome is very likely. And this results in several problems:

"Non-Deterministic"

1) There has to be an odd number of games to determine who is the better of 2 teams (1, 3, 5...). The only exception is round robin play, and for that system to be deterministic the math says playing everyone more than once, where 2 or 4 is acceptable. History and mankind has said this works to a very acceptable level. Note that the FBS is the only entity in sports that tries to subvert this system...and I submit that very much correlates with the subjectivity and argumentation. (Which does arise even without the current situation.)

2) There is only 1 permissible 2nd bite that should be allowed, and that bite happens to correlate with the only situation in the FBS where a playoff exists at all, a Conference Championship game. And that is not a NC affair, it is an external factor that is used to help in deciding who should be the Champ, or play for it, along with other things. And teams do not get to gripe about whether it is fair or not because they signed on. If you don't like it, take it up with your conference...the BCS ask is asking them for their best team....how they determine it is on them. And no system should try to take the greater to resolve the lesser, when that lesser is supposed to lead a better input to the greater. Never try use an input as an output or vice versa. To that, there is no way 2 teams from the same conference should EVER play for the NC. If your conference didn't determine who is the best between 2 teams, that is on them. You can't make the local problem the national problem. To do so you are saying, we will use the NC to determine who was the better of 12 teams rather than 120!!!

3) "We are the best!" "No, we are the best!" This is the can you open when you get 2 bites (or 4 or 6). We can take a system that has errors by design and introduce yet another error. Because in a rematch, especially one that happens after the season development period (like after game 4 and maybe 5) one team's best possible outcome is to draw even. Thus, effectually, you now only have 1 team playing for the NC. In that only 1 team can come out of a rematch game and be clearly declared the best!

The whole system is an ornate filtering process. I only wish I would be allowed to get away with such design flaws in designing a filter system. What do you think would happen if I designed an ornate Stereo Filtering System (Cross-Over) where I made one for a 7 band speaker system (Sub-woofers, woofers, Lo-Mid, Center-Mid, Hi-Mid, Lo-tweeter, Hi-Tweeter...fancy and expensive) then decided I love the key of A and thus I would treat any of its triad notes "special". I will only attenuate the A, C#, and E notes 75% as much as the other 9. No one would buy it, when you played a song in A it would sound really good, in other keys not so good, in some keys quite bad. Or if I designed an ornate air filter for your HVAC system that could filter down to 5 microns, but I put a real fancy bypass on it to allow in pollen, to permit that fresh nature smell to come into the home...nice...but no one would but it!

The problem and argument only comes in when people are answering 2 different questions, is the last layer in determining the best team, or is it a venue to pit the perceived 2 "best" teams against each other.

[billybud]

Maybe your filtering system would be like my natural one.

I will never hear high notes again, and haven't for decades. Too much rock n roll and rounds fired when young, added to an inherited tendency, equals permanent and uncorrectable loss of hearing in the higher ranges.

So I can't hear a lot of today's music since the melodies aren't as simple as older tunes...so, my preference is for the oldies and country...I hear them better.

I also love to listen to an artist put down a driving base line...Carlos Santana (one of my fave's) is beyond my hearing when he hits those pure notes...natural attenuation.

[WoVeU]

Maybe your filtering system would be like my natural one.

I will never hear high notes again, and haven't for decades. Too much rock n roll and rounds fired when young, added to an inherited tendency, equals permanent and uncorrectable loss of hearing in the higher ranges.

So I can't hear a lot of today's music since the melodies aren't as simple as older tunes...so, my preference is for the oldies and country...I hear them better.

I also love to listen to an artist put down a driving base line...Carlos Santana (one of my fave's) is beyond my hearing when he hits those pure notes...natural attenuation.

I feel you there. Much of this new stuff (not that they don't have some good ones) beyond lyrical content do use more high tones...but you aren't missing too awful much...the are also muddier in any cases.
I have been very lucky, while I am just 40, my eye sight and hearing are sharp. I have peers who have not fared so well...and it surprises me...aircraft, generators, loud stereos, engines, guns a many in my past. I do think much of hearing loss is due to high decibels of near-white and sub-white noise...I think the bones of the ear and cochlea handle tuned forces quite well.

I was working on "Over The Hills And Far Away" the other day, nice and clean, and the middle tones are so defining! ( I love open chords and pull-offs and hammer-ons around their chords or scales at that open low end of the guitar. ) Just the right amount of muddy to bring out the clear here and there...really emphasizing the tension and resolve. And I like some stuff much older than me, one of my favorites is Conway's "Only Make Believe." You want to talk about a clean sound, the 50's to very early 60's had it. And Motown...baby bottom smooooooth.

Do you have any ringing or fuzz in your hearing?

[WoVeU]

Now that LSU has won again. What if Georgia beats Tech and beats LSU in the SEC Championship?

This is where the system is most difficult for me, because all you have is subjectivity. But in this case Georgia would be far and away the best 2 loss team!
(They should've never played Boise and SC that early...especially SC being in conference...no warm-up. What is up with that SEC mid season "walk through" game rather than early anyway.)